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Do we need more oil refining capacity?

kman

New Blood
Joined
Jun 28, 2002
Messages
6
Bush said the following in his press conference today:

"The storms that hit our Gulf Coast also touched every American with higher prices at the gas pump. They highlighted a problem I've been talking about since I've come to Washington: We need more refining capacity. It ought to be clear to everybody that this country needs to build more refining capacity to be able to deal with the issues of tight supply. We haven't built a new refinery since the 1970s. And so I look forward to working with Congress to pass a reasonable law that will allow current refineries to expand and to encourage the construction of new refineries. "

It sounds like a push for legislation that will benefit Oil Companies. Do we really need more capacity? Are there laws now that prevent current refineries from expanding or new ones being built?

I would think that supply and demand in our free market society would take care of this on its own.

-kman
 
It sounds like a push for legislation that will benefit Oil Companies. Do we really need more capacity? Are there laws now that prevent current refineries from expanding or new ones being built?

I would think that supply and demand in our free market society would take care of this on its own.
Building even a small refinery requires a lot of investment, which has to pay back, with profits, over its lifetime more than investment in the money markets would bring. The industry has neglected to make that investment - and the shortage of US refining capacity was brought up long before Katrina. Could it be that the industry doesn't think that new refining capacity will have much of a lifetime to pay back over? Might this be a reflection of the industry's private opinion on Peak Oil?

Just a thought.
 
Sounds like the same speech he gave when he was pushing for more nucular energy plants.

<thought crime>
As for more refineries: they would be pretty useless if people used less energy.
</thought crime>
 
It sounds like a push for legislation that will benefit Oil Companies.

You know, when I first heard we needed more refineries, it never occurred to me that someone might make this assessment. :rolleyes:

You forgot the obligatory Halliburton connection.
 
Could it be that the industry doesn't think that new refining capacity will have much of a lifetime to pay back over? Might this be a reflection of the industry's private opinion on Peak Oil?
Likely not.

More likely is the initial, ongoing, and cleanup costs mandated by US law for environmental protection make refinerys in the US uneconomic. Building them in the Caribbean, Mexico, Cen. Am., etc run the same risks (to a somewhat lesser extent) as well as expropriation and other political risk.

At $30/bbl oil, and gas at $US 2/gal, existing plants still operating could make reasonable profit, although the costs to build a new one did not make economic sense for any private company. At $3 or $4 /gal the economics for a new refinery might have been positive (although this is idle speculation).

With oil at $50+ /bbl, the price for US gas must be much higher.
 
Dont the fuel companies do better with less refineries? It makes it easier for them to price gouge. Its the perfect excuse.

I find it hard to believe that the big superich super powerful oil companies couldnt get a new refinery off the ground. They have the power to open up ANWAR but not build a plant on the mexican border? BAH!
 
Heck yes we need new refineries.

For a long time we didn't. There was a boom of refinery building in the '60s which sent the industry into overcapacity -- there was the ability to make more refined products than the US was consuming. Even as the US was an importer of crude oil, we were an exporter of finished products (mostly of heavy stuff like bunker oil and fuel oil, and mostly close to home, to be sure -- I don't want to make it like we were shipping gasoline to Saudi Arabia or anything).

The industry stayed balanced away from equalribium for a long time because of two factors. One was increased gas mileage. Now, most of the increase in gas mileage of the US auto fleet was quickly eaten up by more miles driven. But those were optional miles. If gas got too expensive people would drive less. So that made gas prices sticky downward. The other was "capacity creep" at the newer refineries. New technology allowed refineries to produce in excess of their "nameplate" capacity at a rate of 2-4%/year, enough to absorb all those new miles driven and still drive out of business a bunch of older refineries. Even as refinery capacity in the US has increased at 1-2%/year, the actual number of refineries has decreased by half in the past 30 years.

So far this is all good news for consumers and bad news for refiners. Throughout the 80's and 90's refiners were not making sufficient profits to justify building new ones. Indeed, refineries traded at well below their replacement value or even below their book values. A lot of the big oil companies sold out of refining partly or even entirely in the US -- their capital was better spent finding new sources of crude oil overseas or investing in plastic plants. The other good news for consumers was that pollution was decreasing because these newer refineries' expansions were cleaner than the cruddy old refineries they were putting out of business.

Now, industries always like to overexpand. Even when conditions are poor, there's always a dreamer who thinks that the market will turn, or that he has a better technology, or that he has some marketing edge or whatever. So even in this environment there were companies which wished to build new refineries. What they found is that they couldn't do it -- at any price. Refineries smell, they still pollute, and for them to be of any use they have to be surrounded by ugly and smelly sources of crude oil -- terminals, docks, pipelines, the whole bit. And they have to build new pipelines to get finished product from the refinery site to market. The one place in the United States where a builder has a chance in heck of building a new refinery is the one place where they're not needed -- the Gulf coast from Houston to New Orleans.

Now a couple of things have happened. Capacity creep has largely stopped, at least for the time being. That's mostly because refineries have spent most of their capital for the past few years on preparing for new fuel rules. Each state has its own winter and summer gas mixes, and that's expensive. New sulfur regulations are going into effect and that was expensive. It may come back in a few more years, but finished products consumption has continued to grow -- the balance is now away from customers and toward refinery profits and it will take a long time to catch up even in the best of circumstances.

Additionally, Katrina exposed a geographical imbalance. Those new refineries were mostly on the Gulf Coast. They'll be fine, once they restart. But the old refineries which went out of business were in Chicagoland and Georgia and places like that. Add in population shifts and you've also got a refinery shortage out west. Not just California, but in the four corners states. A localized problem, one which is predicted to recur with the return of the hurricane cycle, causes nationwide problems.

So yes. We need more refineries, we need them in places which haven't allowed them and we need to find a way to make that possible. That is, if market equalibrium is to be restored domestically. There are two alternatives. One is to bring in more finished product from overseas. This is expensive and annoying and increases our energy dependence on foreign sources and (if you're an environmental type) is kind of imperialistic because it basically exports US pollution to wherever the refinery is (currently, mostly places like Aruba and Trinidad) and makes it more difficult to get the correctly formulated gas to the right places at the right time. The other is to let supply and demand take care of the problem without increasing supply. In other words, to tolerate extremely high refining margins much of the time. This is not a non-starter as an issue. Consumers didn't change their behavior from $1.50 gas all the way up to $2.80. But they've shown real resistance at $3.00. It would hurt the economy and probably cause generalized inflation to have consumers making their vacation and even purchasing choices based on the price of gas, but if $3.00 indeed turns out to be the point where real price elasticity kicks in those effects can be quantified and policymakers can make decisions based on that.
 
Dont the fuel companies do better with less refineries? It makes it easier for them to price gouge. Its the perfect excuse.

I find it hard to believe that the big superich super powerful oil companies couldnt get a new refinery off the ground. They have the power to open up ANWAR but not build a plant on the mexican border? BAH!
Your analysis presupposes that only fuel companies can build refineries. I personally have access to the technology. So do you. You can buy it off the shelf from any number of construction companies. If I could magically get permitted today to build a new refinery in Chicago, Arizona, Georgia or the Carolinas or around Denver, I could raise the financing to do it in about three phone calls and have the thing operational by mid-2007.
 
Dont the fuel companies do better with less refineries? It makes it easier for them to price gouge. Its the perfect excuse.

Indeed. But I've been hearing about needing more refineries off and on for twenty years or more.

It's not a new issue.
 
I heard a couple weeks ago that the president of Virgin Airlines is considering building an aviation fuel refinery in the U.S.
 
I find it hard to believe that the big superich super powerful oil companies couldnt get a new refinery off the ground. They have the power to open up ANWAR but not build a plant on the mexican border? BAH!
It's not about Big Oil getting a refinery off the ground, but getting Manny in as competition and driving down the price. Manny says but for government controls he could do it.

Luke T. said:
You know, when I first heard we needed more refineries, it never occurred to me that someone might make this assessment.
If this legislation is nothing more than free money for the biggest companies, than I would agree with kman.
 
No you don't. The days of cheap oil are probably over. What you need is to cut back on oil consumption. You need to cut back for economic (peak oil), political (middle east problems) and environmental reasons (global warming). Let's slowly start weaning ourselves from oil. If you cut back, the present day refining capacity will probably be enough.
 
You know, when I first heard we needed more refineries, it never occurred to me that someone might make this assessment. :rolleyes:

You forgot the obligatory Halliburton connection.

Well, honestly, that is what came to mind when I first heard this part of his speech. To give him the benefit of the doubt, I posted here hoping for a well informed discussion. Thanks for your contribution. :rolleyes:

For Bush not to mention the need to reduce our dependency on oil in addition to increasing refinery capacity demonstrates the short sidedness of his administrations energy policy. Perhaps he was thinking near term with his comments and really does have a comprehensive energy strategy that has not yet materialized in a meaningful way.

-kman
 
For Bush not to mention the need to reduce our dependency on oil in addition to increasing refinery capacity demonstrates the short sidedness of his administrations energy policy. Perhaps he was thinking near term with his comments and really does have a comprehensive energy strategy that has not yet materialized in a meaningful way.
Well of course. Reasonable discussion. :rolleyes:

Been there done that. It was called the late 70's and early 80's and we pumped billions into alternative energy only to have it pretty much go nowhere.

We're not going to move to alternative energy until it is cost effective. And once the cost of gas rises high enough for tar sands and oil shale that is where we are going to go next. IF the environmentalists will let us that is.

As to the OP, it is not an easy yes or no question. Unless of course you are dogmatic in your world view. If we want to lower the cost of gas then absolutely.

If we want to force people to stop using fossil fuels then no and it might be a good idea to start shutting some of them down early.
 
Dont the fuel companies do better with less refineries? It makes it easier for them to price gouge. Its the perfect excuse.

Yes, but greed conquers all. "Greed, for lack of a better term, works." Oil companies will wanna produce just...a...little...more to get a little more profits. And those companies where some engineer figures out another efficiency will benefit from building more since they can produce at a lower price for the same profit. And, in a free society, these efficiencies come all the time because of exactly this incentive.

Of course, even "necessary" regulation (say, ethanol 10% type fuels) (which I am not arguing the point, btw, hence "necessary" in quotes) do have additional costs.

(That's one of the things that sickens me about a lot of rhetoric -- and "both sides" do it -- is to downplay the bad and amplify the good, both of which are intellectually dishonest.)
 
It sounds like a push for legislation that will benefit Oil Companies. Do we really need more capacity? Are there laws now that prevent current refineries from expanding or new ones being built?

Yep--there's environmental regulations and NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard, although I like John Stossel's version--BANANA: Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody--much better) that prevent the building of new refineries and the expansion of existing ones. This was a problem before the hurricane; the rise in prices over the last few years has been due to the refineries being operated at capacity.

You're probably right, though, that the proposed solution will be even more legislation instead of the removal of existing regulations that caused the problem in the first place. That always seems to be the way it is with government.
 
Yep--there's environmental regulations and NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard, although I like John Stossel's version--BANANA: Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody--much better) that prevent the building of new refineries and the expansion of existing ones. This was a problem before the hurricane; the rise in prices over the last few years has been due to the refineries being operated at capacity.

You're probably right, though, that the proposed solution will be even more legislation instead of the removal of existing regulations that caused the problem in the first place. That always seems to be the way it is with government.

Hey Shanek, how would you feel if an oil refinery would pop up in you backyard? How many of you would accept to live near an oil refinery? Be honest now! ;)

I have been downwind from an oil refinery that was refining sulphur rich crude. The smell was... Overwhelming.
 
Hey Shanek, how would you feel if an oil refinery would pop up in you backyard? How many of you would accept to live near an oil refinery? Be honest now! ;)

I wouldn't mind so much. There's a lot of empty land around here, and there's already a belching electrical plant, though it's located far enough away that it doesn't have much effect. An oil refinery wouldn't be that big a deal. The main problem would be transportation, but there are a few freight lines in the vicinity.

As for using less fuel, I heard on NPR the other day that people are doing that already. The psychological barrier of $3/gallon gas seems to have make people re-evaluate their priorities and adopt an "is this trip really necessary?" mentality. I've personally cut my daily motor travel to about a third. Cheap fuel has enabled a profligate attitude. So it's over? Meh.

Of course, this is the free market at work and not kowtowing to Fearless Leader, so some may not consider it of any value.
 
Some people don't want anything drilled or refined, anywhere. They're all for energy independence as long as it doesn't involve taking the oil out of the ground anywhere it might actually be found:
Gov. Jeb Bush said Tuesday he supports federal legislation allowing drilling in the eastern Gulf of Mexico, including areas where he aggressively fought energy exploration just four years ago.

Bush cited new political realities and protections he thinks he could win for the state in exchange.
Environmentalists, Democrats and Republican U.S. Sen. Mel Martinez of Florida staunchly oppose the bill, which would allow oil and gas drilling 125 miles from Florida-controlled waters.
Emphasis mine.

Link:http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-ajebdrilling05oct05,0,4531609.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines
 

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