Do the leaders believe?

[Cuddles]

I can just about understand how people can believe in conspiracy theories, and other woo. If someone says something in an authoratitive way with lots of pictures, numbers, and claimed professionals it is easy to go along with it if you do not do your own research and no nothing about the subject, especially ifn it already follows your own beliefs (such as not liking Bush).

However, I find it almost impossible to believe that the ones making up the theories can actually believe them. In the case of 11/9, the "Scholars" know that most of what they are saying are lies and have even admitted that Loose Change has lies in it. For instance, a simple picture of the aftermath shows that the buildings clearly did not fall into their footprint, so whoever first said this was lying and couldn't possibly have believed it.

Does anyone here think people like Dylan Avery genuinely believe in what they are saying, or are they just attempting to gain power and respect by spouting garbage to unquestioning believers?

I should add that I'm not talking about people like David Icke, who is quite clearly insane, only people who seem not to be foaming at the mouth.

 

[Brainster]

I go back and forth on this. Some of them probably know that the story is a bunch of hooey, but are pushing it anyway to sell books/DVDs/drive ratings. Many others know that they are lying about specific parts of the CT, but think of them as noble lies, lies that serve a higher truth.

Some of the followers are aware of the nonsense as well, but they're being entertained.

 

[uruk]

I think some do believe. People need thier devils to blame the bad things that happen. Sometimes people are more comfortable being angry. They transfer the anger to something else rather than themselves. Just like people who join the KKK who blame all thier troubles and societal ills on another racial group.
An all powerfull governmental conspriacy is a perfect devil. It's just like a supernatual being or a racial minority group. You can't disprove it and you can't prove it either. It's all a self-supporting dillusion.

Well, at least that's my armchair psychology.

 

[stateofgrace]

I was actually thinking about this not too long back and it is a very good point. I mean really do these guys actually believe all this?

Take somebody like Avery, a young guy who suddenly appears from obscurity with a trashy film. And he now as got a cult following him. But the question does remain does he genuinely believe all this rubbish?

I would like to think in his heart of hearts he knows he is wrong but is now stuck in a situation, of his own making, which is virtually impossible to get out off. He cannot possibly back down from what he has said, so he continues.

It would be a delight to see, him come out and say " Sorry guys, I was talking rubbish", but I honestly cannot see this happening. The backlash from his own supporters would be explosive.

"You lie in the bed of your own making".

Plus I also think they love the attention they get.

 

[jskowron]

Remember that the CT leaders (at least the Loose Change ones) are a primarily a bunch of college aged males. They either believe in the theory or believe that acting like they believe in the theory will get them chicks.

More seriously, I think believe is the correct word, rather than convinced of by evidence. In many cases, it seems their belief comes before the evidence and is based on a mistrust of the current government. I doubt that many (any) the CTist were supporters of the administration before 9/11, but rather already believed that the gubermint was out to get them. The attacks were assimilated into this existing view of the way things are.

Personally, I think this is quite a shame and a waste of energy. I don't like the curent administration, but still am convinced by the evidence that 19 Muslim extremist crashed 3 planes into buildings and tried to do so with a 4th.

 

[KingMerv00]

People can believe nearly anything. People are willing to kill and die for those stupid beliefs.

Never underestimate human stupidity.

 

[dirtywick]

I'm just going to say that if I had a belief, and neo-nazis started patting me on my back for said belief, I'd seriously take a long, hard look at my belief. And, since I'm convinced they don't believe in any of it, they're just vultures, it's even worse that they think associating with groups like that is worth it.

 

[Peephole]

I think some of them don't mind spreading lies and ******** because they believe it will further their "cause".

 

[brumsen]

In the case of 11/9, the "Scholars" know that most of what they are saying are lies

Having been among the "Scholars", I would definitely say that this is not true. With (at least) 95% certainty.

 

[Triterope]

In my opinion, there are several factors that get people down the slippery slope of believing conspiracy theories.

First of all, there's a large element of self-fulfilling prophecy at work. Once a conspiracy theory is suggested, any response to it can be interpreted as proof of its veracity.

If someone new comes here and asks what happened to the plane that supposedly hit the Pentagon, how can you respond?

- Call the questioner an idiot: ad hominem attack; proves allegation is true.
- Comprehensively debunk question: illustrates that the official story has something to hide; proves allegation is true.
- Do nothing: question cannot be answered; proves allegation is true.

So anyone who is "just asking questions" can find constant reinforcement of whatever they wish to believe.

Second, conspiracy theorists suffer from extreme mental rigidity. Mental rigidity is the inability to solve problems that require the rejection of preconceived notions. We are all guilty of this to some extent. If you were feeling obscure and geeky about it, you could call it an S.E.P.

Here's the classic example of mental rigidity: "A man and his son are in a car crash. They go to the hospital, and the surgeon says, 'I cannot operate on my son.' How is this possible?" It's a very simple question, but if your mind is not open to certain possibilities, you'll flail like an idiot constructing a ridiculous scenario that meets the specifications of the question.

For a window into the thought processes of conspiracy theorists, rent the movie Tin Cup and watch the scene in which the above question is discussed. It's pretty early in the movie.

By the way, this is why conspiracy theorists are humorless drones. They're so hell-bent on validating conspiracy theories that they are unable to recognize when said theories are being exaggerated for purposes of humor or illustration.

Third, being a conspiracy theorist is gratifying to the ego. You get to be Neo, bravely trying to free the minds of all those around you.

And it's easy: just spend a few minutes reading conspiracy websites, and you're an instant expert on metallurgy, avionics, world history, or any other field of study you need mastery of to win the argument.

In the CT world, real knowledge is meaningless, and expert status can be attained in minutes. It levels the intellectual playing field, for those who wish to play on it but couldn't be bothered to finish college or do any real studying.

And that's just if you're a guy who finds psychological fulfillment in winning Internet debates. Imagine how seductive this must be to someone like Dylan Avery, who has found real-world success, notoriety, and fortune through conspiracy theory. If he admits he's wrong, he loses everything.

Fourth, conspiracy theories provide answers to life's large-scale mysteries. There's no world event or mystery that can't easily be explained with a conspiracy theory. So conspiracy theorists never have to worry about all the troubling and uncertain news in the world, because they know the [insert shadowy world-domination group name here] is really running everything behind the scenes.

CTs claim to be all about exposing and defeating the NWO. But they're really more interested in proving it exists. It is the deus ex machina they need to deal with life's uncertainty. It's like listening to a crackhead complain about the evils of crack.

So, to answer the original question: do the leaders really believe this stuff? I don't think the question can be answered that simply. I think their ability to properly judge the evidence is hindered by one or more of these human weaknesses.

 

[rikzilla]

I can just about understand how people can believe in conspiracy theories, and other woo. If someone says something in an authoratitive way with lots of pictures, numbers, and claimed professionals it is easy to go along with it if you do not do your own research and no nothing about the subject, especially ifn it already follows your own beliefs (such as not liking Bush).

However, I find it almost impossible to believe that the ones making up the theories can actually believe them. In the case of 11/9, the "Scholars" know that most of what they are saying are lies and have even admitted that Loose Change has lies in it. For instance, a simple picture of the aftermath shows that the buildings clearly did not fall into their footprint, so whoever first said this was lying and couldn't possibly have believed it.

Does anyone here think people like Dylan Avery genuinely believe in what they are saying, or are they just attempting to gain power and respect by spouting garbage to unquestioning believers?

I should add that I'm not talking about people like David Icke, who is quite clearly insane, only people who seem not to be foaming at the mouth.

It's turtles all the way down...

-z

 

[tsig]

I'm just going to say that if I had a belief, and neo-nazis started patting me on my back for said belief, I'd seriously take a long, hard look at my belief. And, since I'm convinced they don't believe in any of it, they're just vultures, it's even worse that they think associating with groups like that is worth it.

Hard to soar with the Hawks when you are roosting with the vultures.

 

[David Wong]

I personally don't think it's physically possible for Dyan Avery to believe. As I wrote in that article of mine, he had to go through many, many hours of photos and video to get the material for Loose Change and what he used is edited very, very carefully to omit the evidence that destroys his premise.

No, I don't think he believes. But I am sure he rationalizes it in his own mind somehow ("Bush is such an evil liar, he DESERVES to have evil lies told about him!!!") but I can't imagine the Loose Change editing process happening in such a way that would leave Avery honestly unaware of how overwhelming the evidence is against it.

 

[DavidJames]

I saw the video of the guy who says he saw what looked like a cruise missile with wings hit the pentagon, with the piece about seeing the AA flight edited out. Does anyone know if Dylan or any loosers have ever responded to why they did

 

[ArmillarySphere]

There's a pretty well-known psychological effect that the more publicly you've stated an opinion or theory, the harder it is to let go of it. You're subconsciously compelled to "save face" at all costs, even if it means holding on to an untenable point of view.

Academia is not immune from this either, sadly. The saying is that every new concept takes a generation to adopt - the old geezers have to retire first

 

[steve s]

Does Do-Over Dylan really believe? Does James Frey really believe that his book A Million Little Pieces is an accurate depiction of his life? I think Dylan was making his little fictional movie and either he himself or someone else convinced him it would be more successful if he released it as a documentary. As others have stated, he's now in too deep to do anything else.

As for the Scholars for Truth, I'm not sure what to believe about these nuts. It's probably a deep-seated hatred for all things Bush, but even that can't explain things like the Keebler Elves and cruise missiles enshrouded in 3D holograms. I've despised Bush since before he was president, but I don't know how some people's hatred can lead them so far from reality.

Steve S.

 

[David Wong]

As for the Scholars for Truth, I'm not sure what to believe about these nuts. It's probably a deep-seated hatred for all things Bush, but even that can't explain things like the Keebler Elves and cruise missiles enshrouded in 3D holograms. I've despised Bush since before he was president, but I don't know how some people's hatred can lead them so far from reality.

Also, they're crazy.

 

[R.Mackey]

An idea that occurred to me today is that, perhaps, the hard-core among them believe that BushCo Ltd. carried out the attacks, but is still fully aware that their "evidence" and theories are complete nonsense. Let me explain:

Never mind how this starts, because I don't know. But suppose Avery, Jones, et. al. have this deep-seated conviction that W is responsible and the whole thing is a sham. Yet they know they can't prove it themselves. Perhaps they believe that, if they keep the focus of "questioning" long enough, that someone else -- some questing Galahad who has yet to reveal himself -- will stumble upon the key evidence that justifies their theories. This is enough to justify their fervor, and explains why they cling to their movies despite admission of errors. Errors that are "left in intentionally to stimulate research."

The premise of this hypothetical mental state is nothing more than sheer paranoia, but that's the only thing I can contrive that reconciles unshakable belief with the clear knowledge that their theories are garbage, e.g. the "Pentagon Trap."

I also have no idea how you would cure someone of such a deeply recursive delusion.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

An idea that occurred to me today is that, perhaps, the hard-core among them believe that BushCo Ltd. carried out the attacks, but is still fully aware that their "evidence" and theories are complete nonsense. Let me explain:

Never mind how this starts, because I don't know. But suppose Avery, Jones, et. al. have this deep-seated conviction that W is responsible and the whole thing is a sham. Yet they know they can't prove it themselves. Perhaps they believe that, if they keep the focus of "questioning" long enough, that someone else -- some questing Galahad who has yet to reveal himself -- will stumble upon the key evidence that justifies their theories. This is enough to justify their fervor, and explains why they cling to their movies despite admission of errors. Errors that are "left in intentionally to stimulate research."

The premise of this hypothetical mental state is nothing more than sheer paranoia, but that's the only thing I can contrive that reconciles unshakable belief with the clear knowledge that their theories are garbage, e.g. the "Pentagon Trap."

I also have no idea how you would cure someone of such a deeply recursive delusion.

Armchair Don Quixotes?

 

[sleahead]

No, I don't think he believes. But I am sure he rationalizes it in his own mind somehow ("Bush is such an evil liar, he DESERVES to have evil lies told about him!!!") but I can't imagine the Loose Change editing process happening in such a way that would leave Avery honestly unaware of how overwhelming the evidence is against it.

Avery confirms your suspicions about the way he works here:

"Dylan, quick question dude. How’s the Thermate discovery going to factor into the Final Cut?
Dem Bruce Lee Styles | Homepage | 08.09.06 - 12:33 pm |"

well, we already interviewed Dr. Jones, so we can't leave him out.

as for how we address it, that's still up for debate. some people have claimed to "debunk" what he's said, and a colleague from BYU wrote this entire thesis, closing with "In my 52 years of engineering I've never seen anything so irresponsible" (not verbatim, paraphrasing)

but it's going in, regardless.
dylan | Homepage | 08.09.06 - 12:37 pm | #
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/dazinith/115513641959741392/