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Divide between rich and poor

athon

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Aug 7, 2001
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Does anybody else find it misleading that a constant cry of the left (BTW, I'd count myself on that side of the fence, although only by about foot or so) is how great the divide between the rich and poor is getting?

I don't know if I just don't understand something (entirely possible, in which case somebody here will put me in my place), but from what I do understand the rich are indeed getting a lot richer, but so are the poor. I only really referring to countries like Australia, where the poor can still eat, get and education and seem to have enough money left over each week for those 'necessary pleasures' such as smoking and drinking. These 'battlers':mad: then complain how much money politicians and businessmen get. It sickens me.

So am I missing something? While the 'divide' between rich and poor is expanding, are the poor also getting greater access to technologies and welfare they didn't get fifty years ago?

Sorry - I guess it's 'Ray Martin' syndrome. It just swallows me up every now and then.

Athon
 
There is a case to make saying that the divide is getting larger. The net worth of the top n% is growing more rapidly than the rest of the population. Everyone is getting better off, just the better off are do so more rapidly.

A couple of things which skew the arguement...

- Things are becoming more affordable, so even if I'm not better off I can still have more stuff
- By definition, the top n% are those with all the money. If I was previously part of that group and suddenly had a significant financial reverse, I'd no longer be part of the top n%

I guess it depends who you compare and over what period.

Compared to Bill Gates, I've done badly in terms of net worth over the last few years. Compared to Enron directors, relatively well
 
Certain limited resources, such as land or vintage baseball cards, can become more expensive for "ordinary people" if there is a great divide, because the price is not determined by production costs. Rather, it will be the result of a bidding competition. Then a wealth increase for one person means a wealth reduction for the rest, as their relative bidding power for such resources will drop.

But this isn't the reason why "the left" are concerned about a growing divide. I really can't think of any meaningful answer.
 
karl said:
Certain limited resources, such as land or vintage baseball cards, can become more expensive for "ordinary people" if there is a great divide, because the price is not determined by production costs. Rather, it will be the result of a bidding competition. Then a wealth increase for one person means a wealth reduction for the rest, as their relative bidding power for such resources will drop.

But this isn't the reason why "the left" are concerned about a growing divide. I really can't think of any meaningful answer.

The reason why I am concerned (I don't feel like I speak for all left-leaning liberals) is because in the US, money is power. Concentration of wealth is a concentration of power. And it is my personal opinion that industry leaders are not good stewards of the nation.
 
specious_reasons said:
The reason why I am concerned (I don't feel like I speak for all left-leaning liberals) is because in the US, money is power. Concentration of wealth is a concentration of power. And it is my personal opinion that industry leaders are not good stewards of the nation.
I agree w/ this to a certain extent. IMO, only individuals should be allowed to donate to political campaigns. No companies, trade groups, unions, etc. Imagine, politicians actually having to pay attention to the voters! Lobbying (these groups would be allowed to lobby) should be open, and disclosed on the internet so anyone could keep track of it.

Radical stuff, I know, and it would probably require a Constitutional amendment.
 
Power has always been brokered. There's nothing new about a limited number of people getting near exclusive access to leaders. You think in WW2 rich people didn't want to get richer on govt contracts?

The solution is not to tax rich people out of existence, it's to limit the size of government and limit regulation.

If there's nothing to lobby for (corp welfare, huge programs, etc.), there's less input from lobbists.
 
It comes down to a few things.

#1 During what was known as teh greatest economic time in Americna history the gap between rich and poor was decreasing, and a truely strong middle class was developed for the first time in America. This lastest from 1945 to 1980. After 1980 the trend was no longer towards convergence, but separation. The last time there was a great separation between rich and poor in America it was the predacessor to the great depression. In other words, the gap grew, and then collpased and the Great Depression is what resulted.

#2 There is strong evidence from around the world and years of studies that economic inequality leads to a poorer economy as oppertunity is not as equally shared and the creation of strong classes leads to social fragmentation and social stress.

#3 Between 1980 and 2001 the percentage of AGI (The agrigate income of the US) that went to the rop 1% went from 8% in 1980 to 20% in 2001.

The trend is continuing and shows no sight of letting up, so at that point when do we say that there is a problem? Take it to the extreme. Let's say that the top 1% takes in 100% of all income and the bottom 99% have no income. Okay, do you say that that is a problem or not?

Assuming the anwser is yes, then where along the line do we say that a real problem is present? When the top 1% takes in 10% of the income, 20%, 30%, 40% 50%, 60%?

#4 The fact that the top 1% of the population is definately a problem of SOME kind. No matter how you look at it IMO, the fatcthat 1% of the populaiton is taking in 20% of the nations' income is a problem. Its either a problem with our society that the rest of the 99% of the population is not able to compete with these people for some reason, be it education, they aren't working as hard, they don't have the skills needed, etc. If the bottom 99% is really that far behind because of "merit" then it says we have a problem in that the majority of our population is not up to the task. What can we do to create a society for more skilled people?

However, I don't think thats really the case though. The real issue is that our system natually consolidates wealth and power in the hands of fewer and fewer people. Its essentially somewhat like king of the hill. There is only so much space at the top. Its not as though there are not more people who are capable of doing more or of doing what many of the people at the top do, its just that there is only one CEO in a company, period. There may be 100 people in that company that can do as good a job or bette than the current CEO, but the structure only allows for one, so there is only one, and they get the big bucks. Its a function of structure and our whole society is structured that way, and it will continue to be structured that way and get even more that way.

So the question is then, do we continue to fight over the limited space at the top forever, or can we share some of that space a little bit?

#5 Can Democracy and highly concentrated wealth exist together? Many of America's greatest minds since its birth of have said no. Obviously one of the things that was behind the creation of America in the first place was the breaking away from the system of royalty, inherited wealth, and aristocracy. Many of the founders stated that democracy and a high concentration of wealth in the hands of a few could not exist together, because money is power, and power corrputs. This sentament was repeated with the Progressives of the ealry 20th century by men like Woodrow Wilson and Teddy Roosevelt. It was echoed again by FDR and was an idea that formed the backbone of the economic ideology that guided us through the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s. Reagn's administrtion attacked this ideology adn pretty much trashed it,a dn from Reagan on the fight has been wages by the wealthy to tell Americans otherwise, and at the same time they are not honest, they try to hide just how wealthy they have gotten with deceptive stastics. Why are they trying to disguise the truth?

#6 The idea that our economcy truely and accurately reflects merit and contribution to society is completely bogus. Some people don't claim that it does, and others do. Some say that its important that it does and others don't. If you claim that compensation accuretely reflects contribution to society then how exactly do we explain porn stars that make more money than teachers or even doctors? The AVERAGE salary of an NBA player is now 2.5 million a year. That same NBA player made about $30,000 a year 40 years ago, and less far than that 60 years ago, virtually nothing. Obviously the ability for these people to make this kind of money is completely dependant on a system that they have no part in creating, the sports broadcasting and marketing system. Them running up and down the court and playing a game is the same thing now as it was 50 years ago, yet before the advent of broadcast sports it wasnt'a highly paid career. They themselves are not really earning the money, the marketing and broadcasting system is that allows billions of people to watch a few people play a game.

This is part of the general effect of consolidation. Its just a natural tendancy within our system and the NBA players are a fortunate benfactor of it as a smaller and a smaller number of people are able to meet the demands of larger and larger markets. The problem is, where does all that lead, and since we know that this is a function of systems, not really personal effort, is it not somewhat unreasonable to reward people as though it is a function of personal effort?

The natural tendancy of human beings is to try to consolidate power, wealth, and control. Is this something that we want to simply sit back and let happen?

#7 The assumption is also that the rules of our economy are fair, which they are not. At the high level rules are heavily influenced in our country by very powerful special interests. These rules have major impacts on how wealth is obtained in our economy. For example when the Reagan tax cut went through the representative from Texas requested that in order to get his vote and that of his followers an exemption would have to be put in to remove the rax on domestic crude oil when it is sold from the pump. That's just one example, but our laws are filled with such types of things, some guy gets a loophole in for special treatment of real estate, or this or that. These large companies request these laws, and when they are passed they have programs designed around taking advantage of them, people generate millions and billions of dollars by taking advantage of specific legislation which they offer payback money to politicains for supporting and getting passed. This is how the really big players in our economy work. Tobacco, oil, food, drug, etc all have billions of dollars riding on laws.

Obviously the mor ethat money works on the political system the more the system gets catered the the interests of big money, and its a never ending cycle. The system get's addicted to money and corruption, and thats where we are at right now. In the middle of a system totally currupt by private money.

#8 It takes money to make money. This again leads to a snowball effect in the economy. People become wealthy for many different reasons, but once wealthy they can easily become more and more wealthy with less and less effort. Of course we know this, which is why we all want to become wealthy. However this does little justice to those working their ass off.

There is a huge amount of wealth in America in private hands that has come from very budious sources. Take the Kennedy family for example. Do you know how the Kennedy's got rich? Bootlegging during Prohibition. Durring Prohibition Joseph Kennedy ran a major bootlegging operation between Canada and the US and made millions of dollars. This is pretty much equivilent to let's say a major cocaine distributer making millions of dollars and then if we made drugs legal, he then becomes a politician and his family becomes one of the most powerful familiies in the country with his son as a president.

That's just one example, but there are many, the initial Bush family fortune came from investments in Aushwitz labor camp prior to American entry into WWII, just another example, but in reality there are thousands of these examples. And the reality is that once wealth is consolidated into a family they have a huge advantage in our economy. Many other people never have that oppertunity or advantage, and as we have seen all throught history, the more people have a competative advantage the better. The more fair the competition is for everyone, the better the whole system is. Concentration of wealth by definition reduces the fairness of that competition.
 
Malachi151 said:
...the initial Bush family fortune came from investments in Aushwitz labor camp prior to American entry into WWII...


Evidence please...
 
http://www.clamormagazine.org/features/issue14.3_feature.3.html

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/bushies.htm

http://www.lightwatcher.com/culturejam/bush_slave_profits.html

http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/bushhitlerprojecthtm.htm

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030214.html

It was not a malicious attempt to help enslave the Jews or anything, and apparently he did pay some reparations, but the fact remains that he was invested in Germany industry that used slave labor and he profited from it. It may be that he was not even aware of it at the time, or of the full impications, that I don't doubt, but nevertheless.
 
Malachi151 said:
http://www.clamormagazine.org/features/issue14.3_feature.3.html

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/bushies.htm

http://www.lightwatcher.com/culturejam/bush_slave_profits.html

http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/bushhitlerprojecthtm.htm

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030214.html

It was not a malicious attempt to help enslave the Jews or anything, and apparently he did pay some reparations, but the fact remains that he was invested in Germany industry that used slave labor and he profited from it. It may be that he was not even aware of it at the time, or of the full impications, that I don't doubt, but nevertheless.

Wow! :eek:

Thanks, Malachi...
 
Kodiak said:


Wow! :eek:

Thanks, Malachi...


there was a CNN news story about Bush meeting with Jewish leaders a while ago to dismantle the conspiracy theories about Prescott Bush's involvement and to apologize.

I'm trying to dig it up again....
 
Nie Trink Wasser said:



there was a CNN news story about Bush meeting with Jewish leaders a while ago to dismantle the conspiracy theories about Prescott Bush's involvement and to apologize.

I'm trying to dig it up again....

It seems any Bush involvement with the NSDAP was not only accidental or coincidental, but genuinely regretted as well.

It's still surprising and something I hadn't known before today.
 
Kodiak said:


It seems any Bush involvement with the NSDAP was not only accidental or coincidental, but genuinely regretted as well.

It's still surprising and something I hadn't known before today.


there were many families and companies involved with what would become the Nazi party. The attempt to weave a vast conspiracy out of Prescott's monetary involvement with Germany is being ridiculously warped to gain more dupes for "the cause".

Microsoft was also involved with the Nazis too.

Go the the holocaust musuem and you'll see an IBM booth that counted the jews going into concentration camps. This fact can be easily warped by leftist maniacs in their pursuit of science fictional reality.
 
Nie Trink Wasser said:

Microsoft was also involved with the Nazis too.

Go the the holocaust musuem and you'll see an IBM booth that counted the jews going into concentration camps. This fact can be easily warped by leftist maniacs in their pursuit of science fictional reality.

Ummm... Since when does Microsoft = IBM? How old was Bill Gates during WWII?
 
Nie Trink Wasser said:



there were many families and companies involved with what would become the Nazi party. The attempt to weave a vast conspiracy out of Prescott's monetary involvement with Germany is being ridiculously warped to gain more dupes for "the cause".

Microsoft was also involved with the Nazis too.

Go the the holocaust musuem and you'll see an IBM booth that counted the jews going into concentration camps. This fact can be easily warped by leftist maniacs in their pursuit of science fictional reality.

Who said anything about conspiracy? And why does the fact that many American companies were investing in the Nazi infrastructure and aiding the Nazis financially and making profits from business with teh Nazis make it all "okay".

Its the fact that so many American companies and individuals were doing business with the Nazis that allowed them teh financial and industral means to develop their war machine, thats extremely significant in understanding how military powers come to rise. It shows that business without ethics and without concern can easily contribute to horrible consiquences and even world war.

I don't think that Prescott Bush had any intent to intentionally profit from the concentration camps of was part of any conspiracy to aid the Germans, most likely he simply didn't know what the money was going to exactly, and he didn't care, he was just in it for the profits as a money manager and banker.

The fact still remains that a large part of the Bush fortune was made in this type of activity. The question is where do these fotunes come from, well this si an example of where they come from. There are also people in America right now today that made millions of dollars doing business with Saddam Hussein. They have gone to dinner with him and shaken hands with him and made business contracts with him. Does that mean that they conspired to gas Kurds? No, it does not, but they have profited from his regime nonetheless, and he profited from their business to make his regime stronger. That's what happens when people put profits before prudence, and now we all pay the price, yet they are still rich from problems that they helped to create.
 
Malachi151 said:
Who said anything about conspiracy? And why does the fact that many American companies were investing in the Nazi infrastructure and aiding the Nazis financially and making profits from business with teh Nazis make it all "okay".

what you've so conviently chosen to exclude is that companies from all over the globe were supporting it. Just like the Russians and French did for Saddam Hussein.....many companies were involved.....but you chose only to mention American ones.


Its the fact that so many American companies and individuals were doing business with the Nazis that allowed them teh financial and industral means to develop their war machine, thats extremely significant in understanding how military powers come to rise. It shows that business without ethics and without concern can easily contribute to horrible consiquences and even world war.

I don't think that Prescott Bush had any intent to intentionally profit from the concentration camps of was part of any conspiracy to aid the Germans, most likely he simply didn't know what the money was going to exactly, and he didn't care, he was just in it for the profits as a money manager and banker.

The fact still remains that a large part of the Bush fortune was made in this type of activity. The question is where do these fotunes come from, well this si an example of where they come from. There are also people in America right now today that made millions of dollars doing business with Saddam Hussein. They have gone to dinner with him and shaken hands with him and made business contracts with him. Does that mean that they conspired to gas Kurds? No, it does not, but they have profited from his regime nonetheless, and he profited from their business to make his regime stronger. That's what happens when people put profits before prudence, and now we all pay the price, yet they are still rich from problems that they helped to create. [/B]


you simply hate America and choose to ignore any other country.

same ole anarchist/fascist bullsh_t.
 
athon said:
I don't know if I just don't understand something (entirely possible, in which case somebody here will put me in my place), but from what I do understand the rich are indeed getting a lot richer, but so are the poor.

I've made this point several times in several different threads. People have just glossed over it like I never said anything. They just don't want the facts to get in the way of their agenda.

So am I missing something? While the 'divide' between rich and poor is expanding, are the poor also getting greater access to technologies and welfare they didn't get fifty years ago?

Absolutely. I don't know about Australia, but in the US the poor was getting richer at a much greater rate before government programs were imposed to "help" them. But here, the poor have temperature control, DVD players, and many of them even have cars.
 
The Don said:
A couple of things which skew the arguement...

- Things are becoming more affordable, so even if I'm not better off I can still have more stuff

That only skews it if you don't count it right. Being able to buy more for your money does indeed count as an increase in wealth.

- By definition, the top n% are those with all the money. If I was previously part of that group and suddenly had a significant financial reverse, I'd no longer be part of the top n%

EXCELLENT point!

As I've said before, the argument basically boils down to, "Hey! Look! The rich are rich because they have more money!"
 
specious_reasons said:
The reason why I am concerned (I don't feel like I speak for all left-leaning liberals) is because in the US, money is power.

Why? How can someone make you do something you don't want to do, or stop you from doing something you do want to do, solely with money?
 

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