Did the Devil get a bad Deal ?

[Pvt. Stash]

hello, I wanna share some religious thoughts with you all....


first some history... I was born/raised in a Private (Baptist) school up to 10th grade thereafter going to a public school for 3 years until graduation... so I know a bit about the Christian religion at least...

Back when your young and the critical mind is undeveloped you simply take all what they (teachers/pastors) say as LAW and there are no questions, but as you grow older... you think about it and may find what appear to be inconsistancies/descrepancies...

For instance....

Did the Devil (Lucifer, Satan) get a bad deal... ?


What I mean is... God is Omniscient... He knows Everything , everything that has happened and everything that Will happen. There is no surprising God.

So... God MADE Satan, KNOWING that Satan was going to end up BEING the Devil.

So... what kind of Choice did Satan/Lucifer have? He was created for the PURPOSE of being the Devil. And therefore was going to BE the Devil. Its not like God, upon learning of Satan's betrayal decided THEN to make a Devil, God KNEW all along.

Something else... free will... Angels love God, they dont have a choice. They are CREATED that way.

Man is different, we have free will. We can Decide to not follow/accept God.

Angels (Lucifer/Satan is/was an Angel) dont have that free-will option.

So... if Satan/Lucifer betrayed God, it was because God MADE HIM THAT WAY.

And if God made him that way... is it Satan's fault ? he's simply doing what he was Created to do...


Some may think that to even Think along these lines is borderline Blasphemy, but I prefer to think that I am just using the logic/rational that God created in me... He knew/gave/created me with this sense of right/wrong, and justice/injustice.


I think it all hinges on whether or not Angels have Free-will , I was taught they do not.... Religious Scholars present?

 

[iain]

The trouble with all of this is that it comes under the category of "stuff someone made up". I'm not talking about the Bible (though I could) - but the other stuff.


Let's assume the Bible is all true. Where does it mention whether angels have free will or whether they get a choice about loving God? Satan hardly gets a mention throughout the whole Bible, in contrast to his starring role in modern Christianity.

If we are starting off with what even Christians could accept as just a bunch of stuff someone made up, how can you have a sensible discussion about it all. We might as well be talking about the motivations of Cindarella's fairy godmother.

 

[Darat]

The devil is a very interesting concept for a so-called monistic religion, after all if he can challenge God in other words if he can do things against God's will then how can God be considered omnipotent?

Lots of very intelligent people have tried to rationalise this apparent contradiction over the centuries so I doubt I can provide any resolution to your questions. Here are just some ideas to perhaps give you something more to think about.

An interesting way to look at your questions is to ponder on what is in the Bible about the "the devil". The Bible itself is rather vague of whom or even exactly what the devil actually is.

If your religious teachings were similar to mine you were probably taught that it is "Satan" who tempts Eve. However consider that then in relation to "Satan's" named appearances later in the OT in the Books of Job and Zechariah. Can the characters actually be reconciled especially considering God's cursing of the "serpent"?

Satan is certainly introduced as a character with great powers and reasoning in the Book of Job where he is portrayed as having the ability to think for himself and even argue against what God says. As a result of his dialogue with God Satan is granted permission by God to torment Job to prove or disprove Satan's view of the inherent "evil" in humans. Remember this is all done under the aegis of God's will. Job's torment and suffering come from God, Satan is just God's tool. (I would say Satan shows more "humanity" then God in that telling.)

Skipping to his NT outings we seem to be introduced to an even more powerful version of Satan, have you considered how the devil has the (seeming) ability to offer Jesus all the mortal world? Does this indicate he has domain over the "mortal" world - if so again how does this square with God's omnipotence?

Perhaps this explains why the early Christian Gnostics attempted to introduce dualism into Christianity in the sense of distinguishing the different realms? I.e. that the Earth and all mortal corruption was the creation of Satan whilst the immortal and incorruptible realm was the creation of God.

I would also challenge the idea that from the Bible you can conclude with any certainty that Angels have freewill or not.

 

[c4ts]

It's been a while since I read Job, but I don't remember Satan saying Job would actually turn evil.

 

[Darat]

It's been a while since I read Job, but I don't remember Satan saying Job would actually turn evil.

Perhaps I was a bit too terse with my summary but Job is a complex book. You're right it is wrong to say that Satan was arguing that man is inherently evil in the modern sense of evil, he was arguing about the capacity of man to be good or do good for its own sake.

Job, Chapter 1:

9: Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10: Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11: But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12: And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

 

[swstephe]

omniscience and free-will can't co-exist

the problem is that omniscience and free-will are contradictions. if you know absolutely everything, then there must be something happening that prevents you from acting other than what is already known. there are apologists that say they don't contradict, but they don't explain the ramifications of free-will.

if anyone had the ability to act contrary to what is already known, then that individual has the ability to change the outcome, so it can't be predicted, so omniscience fails.

that is, if there was anyway that the devil could actually foil god's plan, then god couldn't promise that he would win in the end and wouldn't be omniscient. but if he definitely knows he will win, then the devil, the angels, and even we don't have free will, but are just slaves to our various external and internal inputs. if you depend on the prophecies, you know that the devil can never act contrary to fulfulling his role.

that creates problems for many christian denominations since it places god so much closer to the evil performed by his creation -- that goes against their definition of what god is.

 

[redzrx]

Also remember

That satan and his league of demons is a christian invention.. No where in the old testement does satan have an army or is at war with god for peoples souls. Ask any rabbi or religious jew .. they should know. The new testement has nothing to do with the old, they just needed it to take stuff out of context to justify their new religion.


Mario

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Recommendation:

Read "Murder Mysteries," a short story by Neil Gaiman. It is available in the collection Smoke and Mirrors.

 

[AWPrime]

SATAN = GOD

Two faces of the same coin.

 

[Renfield]

Let's assume the Bible is all true.

I tried but then smoke started to come out of my ears and my head exploded. I think it might have been all the contradictions that caused it. My brain just couldn't take it, so it blew up like one of those computers in old Star Trek would do if it got bad data.

 

[Iacchus]

I tried but then smoke started to come out of my ears and my head exploded. I think it might have been all the contradictions that caused it. My brain just couldn't take it, so it blew up like one of those computers in old Star Trek would do if it got bad data.

And yet look at all diversity which is brought forth through the light of the sun.

 

[Kitty Chan]

hello, I wanna share some religious thoughts with you all....
first some history... I was born/raised in a Private (Baptist) school up to 10th grade thereafter going to a public school for 3 years until graduation... so I know a bit about the Christian religion at least...
Back when your young and the critical mind is undeveloped you simply take all what they (teachers/pastors) say as LAW and there are no questions, but as you grow older... you think about it and may find what appear to be inconsistancies/descrepancies...
For instance....
Did the Devil (Lucifer, Satan) get a bad deal... ?
What I mean is... God is Omniscient... He knows Everything , everything that has happened and everything that Will happen. There is no surprising God.
So... God MADE Satan, KNOWING that Satan was going to end up BEING the Devil.
So... what kind of Choice did Satan/Lucifer have? He was created for the PURPOSE of being the Devil. And therefore was going to BE the Devil. Its not like God, upon learning of Satan's betrayal decided THEN to make a Devil, God KNEW all along.
Something else... free will... Angels love God, they dont have a choice. They are CREATED that way.
Man is different, we have free will. We can Decide to not follow/accept God.
Angels (Lucifer/Satan is/was an Angel) dont have that free-will option.
So... if Satan/Lucifer betrayed God, it was because God MADE HIM THAT WAY.
And if God made him that way... is it Satan's fault ? he's simply doing what he was Created to do...
Some may think that to even Think along these lines is borderline Blasphemy, but I prefer to think that I am just using the logic/rational that God created in me... He knew/gave/created me with this sense of right/wrong, and justice/injustice.
I think it all hinges on whether or not Angels have Free-will , I was taught they do not.... Religious Scholars present?

So welcome to the boards.

he was not created to be the devil. Lucifier was created to be a perfect beautiful angel but free will got to him and Lucifier said I will be like the Most High and thumbed his nose at God and convinced some other angels to leave with him. So I would have to say yep choose, free will choose the side they wanted. Then Lucifier full of pride, ego, lies and corruption convinced Adam and Eve to take the same path.

he didnt get a bad deal he wants to be better than God and will step on whoever and whatever he wants to while trying. Dont forget lucifier also knows what God wrote in the bible. lucifier also knows how it will turn out but refuses to believe it through the arrogance and pride. Its no matter to lucifer how many lives he ruins he could care less. All the more to worship him instead of God, thats quite fine with him.

You may not remember a old Stones tune I will put up a bit for you.

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith

And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

I hope that gives you some info on the subject, feel free to ask any more questions.

 

[Beady]

Re: Re: Did the Devil get a bad Deal ?

Lucifier was created to be a perfect beautiful angel but free will got to him and Lucifier said I will be like the Most High and thumbed his nose at God and convinced some other angels to leave with him.

Even when paraphrasing, it's customary to give book, chapter and verse when you cite Scripture. So, where in the Bible did you read all this?

 

[Kitty Chan]

Re: Re: Re: Did the Devil get a bad Deal ?

Even when paraphrasing, it's customary to give book, chapter and verse when you cite Scripture. So, where in the Bible did you read all this?

I will say these forums are not consistant. When I give the verse etc then Im not thinking and someone wants it in my words. Then I paraphrase and I havent given verse. Sigh

Give me a bit and I will get back to ya.

 

[c4ts]

Perhaps I was a bit too terse with my summary but Job is a complex book. You're right it is wrong to say that Satan was arguing that man is inherently evil in the modern sense of evil, he was arguing about the capacity of man to be good or do good for its own sake.

Job, Chapter 1:

9: Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10: Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11: But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12: And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

He might curse God to his face, but I think evil has to be more than that.

 

[Kitty Chan]

Here is the scripture reference bolds are mine;

Isa 14:12-15 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Above speaks of how lucifer fell, how he said I will be like the most High, which is God.



Now, below God is speaking to Ezekiel who is the son of man. The anointed cherub which is lucifier is described as he is, he was created quite beautiful. When it says "the anointed cherub that covereth",he was the leader of the cherubs. Satan was first over the other two great angels - Michael the archangel, and Gabriel who stands in the presence of God. Once again mentioning how he was created in perfection. So there is no bad deal. lucifier is his own bad deal he was the head angel. he choose to change that.

Eze 28:11-19 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou was created.

Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.

Now with the first post and this there should be a good start

 

[Beady]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Did the Devil get a bad Deal ?

I will say these forums are not consistant. When I give the verse etc then Im not thinking and someone wants it in my words. Then I paraphrase and I havent given verse. Sigh

Give me a bit and I will get back to ya.

There's no inconsistency. You cite your sources when you are claiming something to be a fact. When you are quoting an assertion made by someone else, you also give your source as exactly as possible. When you are making an assertion that is your own, however, then sources are not necessary, only a demonstration of logic. If you make an assertion based on one or more facts, give the facts, tell us where you found them, then explain your logic.

If you say the Bible says that Satan (aka Lucifer) led a rebellion, then tell us where in the Bible it says so, and then explain why you believe it to be true. If, however, the Bible doesn't say so, but you still maintain that that's what happened, give us the chain of logic, including your starting point, which leads you to that conclusion.

 

[c4ts]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Did the Devil get a bad Deal ?

There's no inconsistency. You cite your sources when you are claiming something to be a fact. When you are quoting an assertion made by someone else, you also give your source as exactly as possible. When you are making an assertion that is your own, however, then sources are not necessary, only a demonstration of logic. If you make an assertion based on one or more facts, give the facts, tell us where you found them, then explain your logic.

Sometimes I think I learned how to write college papers from this forum.

 

[Kitty Chan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Did the Devil get a bad Deal ?

There's no inconsistency. .

Well I did say "sigh" in that I wish people would make up their minds. I used to do both. Then was told to use my own words that all. Id rather do what you said makes more sense.

But it makes no matter I have posted a start on the scripture references. Thought it could be a start, be nice if Pvt. Stash gets a look. But look at these as a start and I can go from there.