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Did Neanderthals ever draw?

Cainkane1

Philosopher
Cainkane1
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I've seen and heard of excellant quality cave paintings and art but unless I'm mistaken all cave art was done by Cro magnon men. Didn't the Neanderthals ever draw anything on their walls?
 
From the above-linked article:

The standard view of Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalensis) is that they lacked the thought processes capable of producing art - certainly to any real level of sophistication produced by modern humans (Homo sapiens).

Clive Gamble, an expert from Southampton University on the early occupation of Europe by human species, says science has been reluctant to see Neanderthals as great conceptual thinkers.

"The great problem with all the Neanderthal art is that they are one-offs. What is different about the art of modern humans when it appears 35,000 years ago is that there is repetition - animal sculptures and paintings done over and over again in a recognisable style.

"With Neanderthals, there may have been the odd da Vinci-like genius, but their talents died with them."

Bahn, on the other hand, believes the Roche-Cotard mask should set the record straight on Neanderthals' artistic capabilities.

"There are now a great many Neanderthal art objects. They have been found for decades and always they are dismissed as the exception that proves the rule.​
 
Cainkane1 said:
Well yes. They saw the same things that Cro magnon saw so why not try to draw it?
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I don't think you can put it in that way. The ability to draw (producing a visual replica of a true object in some other media) may require some special brain structure. It is surely not just a question of intelligence: Great apes reach intelligence levels comparable to to that of young human children, but they have never been observed to draw (smearing paint on a canvas and fooling an art critic does not qualify ;) ), even though children of comparable intelligence are often quite apt at drawing.

The Neandertal might have also been missing such structures. However, the repeated emergence of 'isolated' Neandertal pieces of art surely seems to contradict that.

Hans
 
There appears to be a correlation between places were Neanderthal "art" has been found and a higher than normal amount of interaction with H. sapiens. This and the "one-offs" seem to indicate they were just copying us.
 
Yes they could. They were known to be fast to clear the holster, but not accurate when shooting. :)
 
!Kaggen said:
There appears to be a correlation between places were Neanderthal "art" has been found and a higher than normal amount of interaction with H. sapiens. This and the "one-offs" seem to indicate they were just copying us.
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Perhaps. Although a thing like 'the normal level' of communication has to be fairly tentative, considering the time distance from which we are observing.

Actually, we shall probably never know even nearly the whole story.

Hans
 
It depends on what you mean by 'draw'.

We have no existing samples of possible artwork of any kind. The closest we have is ochre found in Neanderthal graves. I suspect they were capable of using it to decorate their bodies or objects, however I have doubts that they used it to create symbolic representations.

Athon
 
I did a bit of Googling to learn more about Neanderthal art claims and found the Wikipedia entry for the Divje Babe flute.
If it's not too far off-topic, what's the current take on this 'artifact'?
 
I've added the first link to my favourites. It looks most promising for learning. Thanks for posting it up.
 
!Kaggen said:
There appears to be a correlation between places were Neanderthal "art" has been found and a higher than normal amount of interaction with H. sapiens. This and the "one-offs" seem to indicate they were just copying us.
Click to expand...
I have this to say and it is off topic. Its just too bad the Neanderthals went extinct. Scientists say we out competed them for game and other resources and they just died out. Tragic loss i say.
 
Possibly. A little late to lament them, however. Maybe it will console you that they would probably had happily out-competed us, had they been able.

Hans
 
Oh, forgive me, but I can no longer resist this (realize it is extra disrepectful in light of Cainkane1's last post):

Q: Did Neandertals ever draw?

A: Quite often flies.

Hans
 
Do we know for certain how to attribute any given painting to the Neanderthal or the Cro-Magnon?


To me, the fact that they practised ritual burying seem to suggest a developed ability for symbolic thought.
 
Simon39759 said:
Do we know for certain how to attribute any given painting to the Neanderthal or the Cro-Magnon?


To me, the fact that they practised ritual burying seem to suggest a developed ability for symbolic thought.
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The "ritual burials" have also have been described as possibly just copying H. sapiens.
 
Cainkane1 said:
I've seen and heard of excellant quality cave paintings and art but unless I'm mistaken all cave art was done by Cro magnon men. Didn't the Neanderthals ever draw anything on their walls?
Click to expand...

Well considering that they were way past the window of preservation, it would take exceptional conditions to preserve their drawings.

They did use tools.
 
!Kaggen said:
There appears to be a correlation between places were Neanderthal "art" has been found and a higher than normal amount of interaction with H. sapiens. This and the "one-offs" seem to indicate they were just copying us.
Click to expand...

Um, I would suspect any claims of neanderthal art.
 
Simon39759 said:
Do we know for certain how to attribute any given painting to the Neanderthal or the Cro-Magnon?


To me, the fact that they practised ritual burying seem to suggest a developed ability for symbolic thought.
Click to expand...

Well it would depend on the provenance of the 'art' and establishing the time frame which can be rather tricky.
 
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