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Developing World

CDRM

Student
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
47
I always hear how market liberalization (free markets, capitalism) is improving the developing world, and then I hear people saying how its hurting the developing world.

Which is true?

What information can I use to determine if a countries living standards are improving? Where can I find it?

:confused:
 
international trade is mainly helping the developed world to earn more money.
fair trade would help the developing world.
 
There are numerous issues involved in this question. One of the most basic ones is the misconception that making everyone operate under the same rules will benefit everyone.

I'll make an analogy from Texas Hold-em Poker. After a long tournament, two players are left, playing head-to-head. Both operate under exactly the same rules, both have exactly the same odds to get a good hand, etc. They are "equal" in this regard.

However, one of the players has ten times more chips than the other. Thus, the shortstacked player can afford to take far fewer risks...they have to either go all-in and risk everything on a marginal hand, or try to wait for a strong hand (and risk losing most/all of their money to the blinds). And their opponent can use their power to push them off of hands that they might have had a chance of winning.

So its not, really, equal at all.

Same in regards to international economies. Fact is, building an economy involves risk, and is inevitably going to entail mistakes and failures. If you're already a developed economy, you'll be able to absorb those mistakes and failures without too much difficulty; but if your economy is weak and undeveloped, such mistakes and failures are critical, representing a significant hit to your country.

A simple example -- mining (or many other forms of natural resources). It involves a significant investment of time and money to identify a good potential mining site. Many of the places that you test will turn out to not be worthwhile (and thus, you've spent a lot of money, and gotten no return). Even when you identify a viable site, you've then got to invest even more money in building the mine.

Now, for a country like the U.S., its relatively easy to do this. But for a nation that is undeveloped, and doesn't have much money, this can be anywhere from very difficult to impossible. Thus, we get the situation we have today...where many of the natural assets of foreign countries are owned/controlled by other larger, richer nations.

Now, in some cases, this can be a boon to the country in question. It provides employment, it puts more money into the local economy, etc. In other cases, it can be a curse. People are employed at slave wages, in terribly unsafe conditions, and almost all the money goes to the foreign owners, and/or local corrupt gov't leaders.

Which direction it goes will depend largely on both the government of the country in question (Are they largely immune to corruption? Do they have strict laws to protect workers? Do they have clear policies on foreign investment that are followed strictly?), and on the foreign company that is investing there (What are the ethics of the company leaders? Do they invest their profits back into the local economy, or do they keep them for themselves? Do they apply the same standards of safety and workers' rights that they would in their own country?).

There are examples of countries that have benefitted greatly from international trade (China and India being two of the more obvious ones); and there are examples of countries that have been terribly exploited. There's no simple answer.
 
There are numerous issues involved in this question. One of the most basic ones is the misconception that making everyone operate under the same rules will benefit everyone.
I'm unclear about how you analogy impacts on this statement. To be more specific when you say:

I'll make an analogy from Texas Hold-em Poker. After a long tournament, two players are left, playing head-to-head. Both operate under exactly the same rules, both have exactly the same odds to get a good hand, etc. They are "equal" in this regard.

However, one of the players has ten times more chips than the other. Thus, the shortstacked player can afford to take far fewer risks...they have to either go all-in and risk everything on a marginal hand, or try to wait for a strong hand (and risk losing most/all of their money to the blinds). And their opponent can use their power to push them off of hands that they might have had a chance of winning.

So its not, really, equal at all.
You only suggest that the player who started with more chips is in a better position than the one who started with fewer. That, as you say, they aren't equal. But at the beginning of your post you suggested that everyone following the same rules isn't of benefit to everyone, which is a completely different question than whether or not everyone is equal.

As to whether or not it's beneficial, clearly that can only be addressed relative to other possible systems. And it's very likely true that some systems will be more beneficial for some of the parties involved while being worse for others.

I agree with much of the rest of your post.
 
You only suggest that the player who started with more chips is in a better position than the one who started with fewer. That, as you say, they aren't equal. But at the beginning of your post you suggested that everyone following the same rules isn't of benefit to everyone, which is a completely different question than whether or not everyone is equal.
If you begin in a situation that is too inequal, then following the same rules will not benefit everyone.

Some more extreme examples to illustrate my point (not necessarily relevant to the points above, just showing my meaning):

* A rule that says that all landowners can vote...but 1/4 of the population doesn't have enough money to own land.

* A rule that says all fighters in a competition have equal opportunity to fight each other...but some of them are lightweights, while others are heavyweights.

I'm not saying that not being equal, and not benefiting from following the same rules, will always go together. Only that the idea that if we create the same rules for everyone, that it will benefit everyone...is wrong. Sometimes it will. Sometimes it won't.
 
If you begin in a situation that is too inequal, then following the same rules will not benefit everyone.

Some more extreme examples to illustrate my point (not necessarily relevant to the points above, just showing my meaning):

* A rule that says that all landowners can vote...but 1/4 of the population doesn't have enough money to own land.

* A rule that says all fighters in a competition have equal opportunity to fight each other...but some of them are lightweights, while others are heavyweights.

I'm not saying that not being equal, and not benefiting from following the same rules, will always go together. Only that the idea that if we create the same rules for everyone, that it will benefit everyone...is wrong. Sometimes it will. Sometimes it won't.

I guess I agree with the main thrust of what you're saying. I'm only trying to point out that any system of rules won't benefit everyone (or at least is pretty unlikely to). The question is, what was the system like before? In other words, benefit relative to what?
For instance, if we go from a system where only male landowners can vote, to one in which all landowners can vote, male landowners are harmed (at least superficially), because now their votes have less power than previously.

But I guess that's sort of a side point.
 
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Roboramma,

The reason I made this point was because of what seems to me to be an emphasis on creating "equal opportunity" for everyone by creating a system of international rules that everyone must abide by. Call it fair trade, call it free trade, call it whatever you want. The idea seems to be that if we'd just get rid of rules that explicitly give more power to one side than to the other (ie. the American market can deny entry to competing products, but force its own products onto other markets), then all these poor developing nations will benefit.

My point is simply that this is not necessarily the case...that we may, in fact, have to create a kind of "international affirmative action" by which countries that have less money will get greater benefits, in order to balance out the inherent difficulties those economies are going to face.

And yes, I know that this is already done, to a certain degree; I just felt it was a point that was worth raising for this discussion :)
 
I always hear how market liberalization (free markets, capitalism) is improving the developing world, and then I hear people saying how its hurting the developing world.

Which is true?
In the developed world farmers can focus on growing only the most profitable crops, because everyone is rich enough that a worldwide food shortage doesn't affect us significantly. In the developing world this doesn't work, because the poor there are the first to not be able to afford food when prices rise. They get foodriots and all kinds of chaos when it happens.

On the other hand, switching to more profitable crops obviously has economic benefit for developing nations. But at the risk of occasional starvation, and hence political chaos that can even eliminate any economic progress made in between.

I think Chinese leadership realises this. They are gradually evolving towards capitalism, adopting the benefits while simultaneously accepting only affordable risks. Developing countries that chose a more sudden approach often experienced a few years of spectacular growth, followed by a devastating crash.

Libertarians are seduced by the elegant beauty of market liberalization's theory. They fail or simply refuse to take into account corner cases and conditions. For example, that an intersection of the supply and demand curves where prices are such that people starve is by many considered unacceptable - especially by those doing the starving. And that markets can be faced with sudden changes, but require time to adapt. Developed nations posess a financial cushen to soften the blow in the meantime, developing nations do not.
Central planners are idiots who fail to realize that an advanced economy is far too complex to regulate centrally.
The balance is somewhere in between, where ironically developed nations are better positioned to move closer to the libertarian ideal, gaining the most benefits.
 
You talk about them as though they were two different things. What, do you think, is the difference?
If I may: Are you seriously implying the two are the same? Since "international" is a geographical distinction, and "fair" is a value judgement, the two aren't merely different, they are entirely independent concepts.

The nice thing about national trade is that all participants follow the same legal rulebook. The same is more or less true for trade between culturally and developmentally comparable nations. But in trade between developed and developing nations the participants are generally subject to entirely different rules.

A strong argument can be made that a system where different participants are subject to different rules, due only to accident of birth, is by definition unfair. Depending on your definition of "fairness". International trade between developed and developing nations is such a system.

Of course I don't really mind, since I find life and fairness have very little to do with eachother anyway.
 

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