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Derren Brown banned from casino.

Preemptive blacklisting, or does he actually count cards?

Or does that not even matter in UK/Euro casinos?
 
Azrael 5 said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...scorted-casino-attempting-play-Blackjack.html

Seems casino owner have been sucked in to believing Derren's persona.:D
Aren't casino's rigged up to spot card cheats and such? :rolleyes:
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AFIK, all blackjack in the UK is dealt from a shoe, face up, and the player is not allowed to touch the cards. Under those rules, I don't see how anyone could cheat via sleight of hand. In a hand dealt game, there are some shenanigans one might use, but getting caught will likely get you a trip to the local jail, and criminal charges.
 
I am not a card expert, a gambling expert, or a casino expert, but I don't think the major concern of casinos is card manipulation unless the dealer is in on it. I had thought card counting was a major, if not the major, concern.
 
Garrette said:
I am not a card expert, a gambling expert, or a casino expert, but I don't think the major concern of casinos is card manipulation unless the dealer is in on it. I had thought card counting was a major, if not the major, concern.
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Well, in any game where players are allowed to actually handle the cards (such as handheld blackjack games) casinos do indeed have to be concerned about various forms card manipulation, such as holding out and switching cards, or marking cards, as well as be concerned with dealers (deliberately or through carelessness) revealing hole cards. Any of these can result in a much bigger advantage to the player than card counting, and not all require the complicity of the dealer. Generally in this type of game there is a rule that you are allowed to use only one hand on the cards, which makes such manipulations difficult, but not necessarily impossible.
 
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I'm going to surmise that the point of this ban isn't that the casino is afraid of being bilked on a large scale by Brown at the table; I think they're more concerned about him doing some kind of hidden camera segment as part of one of his shows for instance, or exploiting the casino in some other kind of indirect way.
 
How many decks in the shoe in a UK casino? I'd think that they're less concerned about him manipulating or magically changing the pips to turn a trey into an ace, but would be very concerned that he'd be an excellent counter.

Kreskin was quite adept at mnemonics and once IDed a hundred or so people, by name, in the Tonight Show audience. Even if it was a trick (this was long before Kreskin started eking over the line to woo), it's the kind of thing people believe mentalists and mnemonists do. Even in an 8 deck shoe, it's probably not that hard for a trained mentalist (trained in mnemonics) to calculate the plus/minus values.

Casinos, rightly or wrongly, can ban anyone they think is counting. In the case of Brown, I'm sure it's a preemptive strike. They're just SURE he's going to do something to take away their edge. (I don't agree with this - I'm just stating the policy. I think that if someone develops a talent for knowing the value of the cards exposed and remaining, they should be allowed to play as long as it's all between the cards and player with no external devices involved. Banning them is sort of like banning a bridge player who has a better memory of the cards that have been played already.)
 
Checkmite said:
I'm going to surmise that the point of this ban isn't that the casino is afraid of being bilked on a large scale by Brown at the table; I think they're more concerned about him doing some kind of hidden camera segment as part of one of his shows for instance, or exploiting the casino in some other kind of indirect way.
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Id say you were surmising wrongly. IMO they've bought into to his TV persona, I doubt he can "card count" or do any special mnemonics,no more than he can hypnotize the croupier to think she's a zombie ;)
 
What sort of advantage does card counting give ?

Can it actually swing the odds into the players favour, rather than the house ?
 
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LandR said:
What sort of advantage does card counting give ?

Can it actually swing the odds into the players favour, rather than the house ?
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"Counting cards" is a term for certain systems where you keep track of the high and low cards. With a majority of high cards left in the shoe, you bet your good hands much more strongly. This gives you a certain advantage over the house. Not as much as people think, I believe, but it's been a while since I looked into it.
 
LandR said:
What sort of advantage does card counting give ?

Can it actually swing the odds into the players favour, rather than the house ?
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A tremendous advantage. The odds drop to almost even or perhaps slightly one way or the other, I forget which.

The huge deal though is knowing when to vary your bet. Most wins are larger and most losses smaller.

This changes everything and is how the house knows what you're up to. Take away that ability with ban threats (it's not illegal) and you remove the majority of the players edge. And still players win while being discrete.

That's a huge advantage.
 
Most known magicians are welcome in casinos, afaik. They don't cheat and are good for business. For example, I heard that Antonio Esfandiari is allowed to play high stakes poker but is not allowed to touch the cards beyond cleanly looking at his hands and moving them forward for the dealer to muck.

There could be truth to the idea that they feared secret camera crews. He is rather sneaky...
 
At the moment, I believe it’s all PR. He loves to mention that he’s banned from casinos. Now there is more evidence that there is truth to it. Any publicity is good publicity, and all that.

I certainly hope it’s not about them believing he’s actually able to psychically manipulate the dealers and whatnot... That would just be sad...
 
Maurice Ledifficile said:
Most known magicians are welcome in casinos, afaik. They don't cheat and are good for business. For example, I heard that Antonio Esfandiari is allowed to play high stakes poker but is not allowed to touch the cards beyond cleanly looking at his hands and moving them forward for the dealer to muck.
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You didn't feel the least bit silly posting that? Really? :p

And yes... I know his nickname.
 
Azrael 5 said:
Id say you were surmising wrongly. IMO they've bought into to his TV persona, I doubt he can "card count" or do any special mnemonics,no more than he can hypnotize the croupier to think she's a zombie ;)
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I'd be willing to bet he could count cards if he put his mind to it.

Most of what he does is traditional magic dressed up as mentalism, but he does have some very impressive memory tricks that I think actually are memory tricks.
 
LandR said:
What sort of advantage does card counting give ?

Can it actually swing the odds into the players favour, rather than the house ?
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Of course it gives an advantage when you know what cards are left in the deck, however casinos are always changing things to reduce the advantage, like using more decks, burning cards, reshuffling.
 
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