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Deregulate Insider Trading?

Suddenly

Unregistered
S
There was a large thread that became an "insider trading" thread where it was declared by a poster that it was a fact that insider trading should be legal as it hurts no one.

Now... I was aware there were certain theories to that effect, but they were just that - a few theories, so I started questioning that premise and as a result I don't think the premise was expressed very well, and the argument really didn't go anywhere.

I thought that a shame since the theory is actually much more reasonable than it appeared to be in that thread. So, I decided to do what I should have done in the first place, lay out the theory and the basic problems with it as I see it.

Some background: Any knowledge I have w/r/t this topic is a result of some practical experience with smaller corporations, and from teaching a course in Business Law at a nearby college. One chapter was on insider trading and I wound up devoting some time to the theory that insider trading would be better off not being regulated. The material comes from that. This isn't a research paper, so there will be very little citing of sources. I'll just go from memory.

Insider trading is not, as it may seem, trading by someone with information others do not have. For the laws to apply, that information must come from the inside of the corporation appropriated in violation of the insider’s duty as an agent of the corporation and not available to the general public. Persons other than insiders can be in violation via legal theories analogous to “receipt of stolen property” where the outsider knows that the information was “stolen” and uses it anyway.

Even without the laws making it illegal, absent permission from shareholders, insider trading violates an insider’s duty to the shareholder as the agents shareholder.

Which brings me to the main point. Often when we hear arguments that insider trading should be legal we equate that to the idea that the insider must have some right to trade with insider information. However that is a bit of a strawman. When economists and such speak of this concept, it is more in line with the principle that shareholders should have the right (through their representatives on the board) to choose to allow the insiders to trade on inside information. This is a subtle but important distinction.

From a moral perspective the argument is simple. Consent. Stockholders choose whether to allow insider information by vote, just like any other corporate policy. Those who want to buy the stock are aware of company policy before they buy, so any financial setback from people trading on the market with better informed people is, from a moral standpoint, consented to.

More interesting is the economic justification. Obviously, if there were no benefit to allowing such trading, shareholders wouldn’t ever vote to allow it. One benefit to the shareholders is that they can, so to speak, “sell” the right to trade with inside information to the employees by making it part of a compensation package.

Insider trading is on the aggregate, a neutral activity, just as all other transfers of stuff. This is opposed to a negative aggregate, such as murder or arson, where less stuff emerges, or a positive aggregate, such as building a house, where raw materials become a finished useful product. This is not to say all neutral activities are equal to either the parties involved or society as a whole. A negotiated trade of a car for currency is a different story from me swiping your wallet.

So the theory goes, insider trading is overall neutral as far as it being a transfer. So, the question is what other effects does it have. One effect is it causes other people on average to receive lesser value from stock trades. Another is that it does to a point increase market efficiency in that information gets into the market faster. In the simple version, that is about it. These effects will affect companies differently depending on the size of the corporation and the market structure. Clearly, for a company with 2 owners where one is active in day to day business and one is not, the first effect is bigger than the second, if not only because the efficiency of the market is a worthless concept as there likely is no market for the shares. In a huge publicly traded corporation it can be a different story.

The legalization theory holds that some corporations are better off if they allow the trading as the combined effect of the sale of the rights and added market efficiency outweighs any lesser value from sale of stock. Furthermore, the theory holds that private enforcement against insider trading by the corporations not allowing the insider trading is more efficient than public enforcement by the government.

Another point in favor of legalization that doesn’t fit in nicely above is that there will always be insider trading activity that is impossible to regulate. An insider may chose to not sell or not buy based on inside information, and absent a Vulcan mind meld we would never know.



Two common criticisms of the above theory:

1) Allowing officers to trade on inside information creates perverse incentives, in that the officers will profit mostly from huge market swings than from creating shareholder wealth. This would create a conflict of interest, one that the corporation can’t really manage without climbing all over the officer’s butt with a magnifying glass. There are rebuttals to this, and one is by Libertarian economist and proponent of the “Austrian School of Economics” Alex Padilla. The rebuttal is on his website at http://www.alexpadilla.org/contents.htm, an article titled “Can Agency Theory Justify the Regulation of Insider Trading."

2) Insider trading harms the liquidity in small markets as it puts other speculators, as well as market specialists, at a disadvantage. Society prizes liquidity in its markets, that stocks can easily be converted to cash and vice versa. It encourages investment in the market when an investor can easily buy or sell. There are two classes of people that increase liquidity, speculative traders and specialists. Specialists are special traders that help “make a market” in a particular stock by maintaining an inventory and trading as needed. Insider trading means that they will be making on average a higher percentage of trades in poor situations where stock is likely to go down.

Also, speculative traders that make their living by exploiting a general informational advantage against investors who “do less homework” are now trading in a market with others that have an economic advantage. The logic behind allowing regular speculative investing and not insider trading is expressed best by footnote 10 in this article.
Informed trading by noninsiders is generally tolerated by those opposed to insider trading under the rationale that a noninsider’s information does not result from having a special position that allows access to the firm’s information. In theory, any investor can become an informed trader if he is willing to invest the necessary resources. The option to become an insider is not generally available.
Harming those that provide liquidity will cause them to leave the market. Less liquidity means lest investment, which makes it harder to raise capital by selling stock, which harms the market as a whole.

There is also the obvious fact that these market professionals suffer a negative consequence, but then again, absent liquidity these guys don't provide a service, so who cares.

3) The general argument that the private enforcement by firms not allowing the trading will be less efficient, if not a practical impossibility, and requiring such a level of shareholder vigilence will decrease liquidity as who needs the stress of keeping an eye on people. That Padilla dude mentioned above addresses this as well.


I’m sure there is something from some economist to contradict most everything I claim above. Economics is hardly an exact science, and there is discord at almost every level. However, this is as far as I can tell a balanced description of the “legalization” viewpoint.
 
Suddenly---OMG!!!!!!!! No WONDER why nobody responded! Oh...your real name isn't Susan by chance?

I have thought about this thread topic myself, already. In fact, today, while eating lunch, I thought of it when an ad on the radio came on, telling me how I should invest in gold. This is an ongoing ad campaign right now. They claim gold could soon see $800 an ounce. The ad even suggests that Bill Gates sell Microsoft and invest all his money in gold!

NATURALLY! This is just like insider trading. By them telling people to invest in gold...that it is a sure bang money maker...they are trying to get people to jump on the band wagon, so they can drive up the price of gold!

It's like...we know there are always going to be shenannigans in the money markets. So what do we do? Give up on regulating them, or simply let the chips fly where they may. And may the most ruthless invester win?

And...what happened to Martha Stewart. The Kobe Bryant lawsuit, Elizabeth smart, Iraq, that Scott Peterson guy...and...hmmm...well, anyway...everyone has forgotten about Martha Stewart. The last thing I heard from her is that she fears having to go to prison.
 
tl;dr

Skeptic John Allen Paulos has a brief discussion of insider trading in his excellent little book _A Mathematician Plays the Stock Market_. It's worth reading.
 
Cain said:
tl;dr

Skeptic John Allen Paulos has a brief discussion of insider trading in his excellent little book _A Mathematician Plays the Stock Market_. It's worth reading.

Thanks. That does look interesting. I may have to pick that one up.
 
Iamme said:
I have thought about this thread topic myself, already. In fact, today, while eating lunch, I thought of it when an ad on the radio came on, telling me how I should invest in gold. This is an ongoing ad campaign right now. They claim gold could soon see $800 an ounce. The ad even suggests that Bill Gates sell Microsoft and invest all his money in gold!

NATURALLY! This is just like insider trading. By them telling people to invest in gold...that it is a sure bang money maker...they are trying to get people to jump on the band wagon, so they can drive up the price of gold!

Keep in mind that trading in commodities like gold is not the same thing as trading in stocks. It's not regulated by the government. It's goverened by the National Futures Association, a completely private regulatory body which sets rules to which commodities traders voluntarily agree. They have all sorts of rules in place to stop people from being harmed by fraudulent pricing, but no restrictions on the kind of insider trading I was speaking of in the other thread. And it really hasn't been a problem.
 
shanek said:


Keep in mind that trading in commodities like gold is not the same thing as trading in stocks. It's not regulated by the government. It's goverened by the National Futures Association, a completely private regulatory body which sets rules to which commodities traders voluntarily agree. They have all sorts of rules in place to stop people from being harmed by fraudulent pricing, but no restrictions on the kind of insider trading I was speaking of in the other thread. And it really hasn't been a problem.

Maybe that is because when you buy gold you aren't buying shares in a corporation. You are just buying gold. You have no voting rights, there are no corporate officers and employees acting as your agents by proxy, and thus nobody that can violate agency duties by appropriating information for their own use.

There is no insider trading in commodity trading like there is in the stock market largely for the same reasons you never see football referee call a runner out on a close play at the plate.
 
Suddenly said:
Maybe that is because when you buy gold you aren't buying shares in a corporation.

Which is why I said it was different. Why don't you actually read what I say and try to understand it before going on the offensive?
 
shanek said:


Which is why I said it was different. Why don't you actually read what I say and try to understand it before going on the offensive?

Yep. Lets analyze your statement:

Keep in mind that trading in commodities like gold is not the same thing as trading in stocks. It's not regulated by the government. It's goverened by the National Futures Association, a completely private regulatory body which sets rules to which commodities traders voluntarily agree.
(You have stated that commodity trading is different than trading in stocks as commodities are not regulated by government. No other basis is given or implied.)They have all sorts of rules in place to stop people from being harmed by fraudulent pricing, but no restrictions on the kind of insider trading I was speaking of in the other thread. (Statement of fact w/r/t lack of insider trading regulation. Refers to other thread, where your argument was insider trading harms no one and should be deregulated. ) And it really hasn't been a problem.(Saying that lack of insider trading regulation has not hurt the commodities market.)

I read it. I can also analyze it. You are making the implication that since commodities markets get along just fine without insider trading regulatuions, that stock markets would too. Which is an absolute howler, as the type of insider trading we are talking about in the stock market isn't possible in a commodities market.

If you were making, or even seeking to acknowledge the point I made that there is no "insider trading" possible in an commodities exchange due to the fundamental differences in the items being bought and sold, your post was a pretty funny way of going about it.

That difference is implied nowhere in your post. You said they were different, but then you explained that one is regulated differently than the other. You left the fundamental difference unsaid. Plus you later made a direct comparison when you said "but no restrictions on the kind of insider trading I was speaking of in the other thread"

I am struggling to see an alternative to the conclusion that either you were unaware of the difference or that you made an intentionally misleading point.

Just to drive this into the ground, lets examine the internal logic of the post. We will change commodities to football, stock market to basketball, and insider trading to "three second violation":
(my substitutions in bold)
Keep in mind that football is not the same thing as basketball. It's not regulated by the NBA. It's goverened by the NFL, a completely private regulatory body which sets rules to which football players voluntarily agree. They have all sorts of rules in place to stop people from being harmed by a forearm to the head, but no restrictions on being in the free throw lane for more than three seconds. And it really hasn't been a problem.

Unless you know football has no free throw lane, it reads as an implication that basketball has unnecessary regulations. If you do know football has no free throw lane, it really makes you wonder as to the point of the whole thing.
 
Suddenly said:
Yep. Lets analyze your statement:

What you're refusing to analyze is the statement I was responding to, and, in so doing, you're taking my remarks out of context.

Here's what I was responding to:

Originally posted by Iamme
I have thought about this thread topic myself, already. In fact, today, while eating lunch, I thought of it when an ad on the radio came on, telling me how I should invest in gold. This is an ongoing ad campaign right now. They claim gold could soon see $800 an ounce. The ad even suggests that Bill Gates sell Microsoft and invest all his money in gold!

NATURALLY! This is just like insider trading. By them telling people to invest in gold...that it is a sure bang money maker...they are trying to get people to jump on the band wagon, so they can drive up the price of gold!

I was pointing out how this was not like the kind of insider trading we're talking about since the commodities market was different than the stock market. Your "referrals" exist only in your imagination and in your personal bias against me. Pointing out the lack of insider trading laws in the commodities market served to support my point that it wasn't an issue.

And, as usual, even after I post a clarification, you're trying to insist that I must have meant what you think I meant, what you want me to have meant.
 
shanek---I'll admit that I went out on a limb. Yes, it's not the same. It is something that just popped into my head because it 1. had to do with trading...and 2. the trading can be somewhat controlled by what people do and say, in that industry.
 
shanek said:

I was pointing out how this was not like the kind of insider trading we're talking about since the commodities market was different than the stock market. Your "referrals" exist only in your imagination and in your personal bias against me. Pointing out the lack of insider trading laws in the commodities market served to support my point that it wasn't an issue.
How in the world does pointing out the lack of regulation of insider trading in commodities markets go to support anything when there simply by definition can't be insider trading in the commodities market? It's like pointing out ancient Greece didn't require registration of firearms.

Lamme said that aggressive commodities marketing was like insider trading in that to him it seemed ruthless. You responded by pointing out the lack of insider trading regulations. That's a bit of a weird way to put it, but fair enough.

You could have just said that there can't be insider trading in commodities trading, but that would have been straightforward and logical

What I can't fathom is what you meant by saying they have not had any trouble due to the lack of regulations. I doubt lack of gun control messed up the Spartans much either.

What I meant by you referring to what you were saying in the other thread was where you said:
but no restrictions on the kind of insider trading I was speaking of in the other thread.
This is the only time I said you were referring to anything.




And, as usual, even after I post a clarification, you're trying to insist that I must have meant what you think I meant, what you want me to have meant.

Keep chalking my points up to personal bias. Much easier than thinking and maybe making some showing that is the case. Just scream bias and maybe you will distract from your poor argument.
 
Suddenly said:
How in the world does pointing out the lack of regulation of insider trading in commodities markets go to support anything

Because it shows that it is universally recognized that it isn't needed in commodities trading. The same cannot be said for the stock market. This makes sense and is very basic and obvious, but I predict you'll reject this because you just cannot get past your own bias against me.
 
shanek said:


Because it shows that it is universally recognized that it isn't needed in commodities trading. The same cannot be said for the stock market. This makes sense and is very basic and obvious, but I predict you'll reject this because you just cannot get past your own bias against me.

Uh huh. My bias. Sorry. [cheapshot]Maybe I'm just jumpy from all the caffeine in the chocolate bar I just ate.[/cheapshot]


:)

I'll just let the thread speak for itself as to this issue.
 
I am of two minds on this one.

There is the capitalist side of me (albeit a very small part): and it says that the market place is the market place. But to counter that I would also point out that I feel that the corporations are on a 'raider' mentality right now, where they go in and suck out the profit and move on to the next. And while this is a form of capitalism, it is not really building capital, which on a theoretical level is a bad thing.

And so I feel that just letting people take advantage of the system to make money is not good for the system.

Then there is the Fairness side of me. And it says that it isn't real a free market if the inofmation is not FREE TO ALL.

Scenario One: Companies using creative accounting and outright lying to cover the fact that they aren't doing a very good job. But insiders can sell these worthless stocks , knowing full well that they are worthless.

Scenario Two: Collusion to drive up the price of a stock. While this also isn't illegal, it isn't good for our economy. And it can be a form of insider trading.

But basicaly it comes down to this, a person who makes an idea or product should benefit fromn thier labor. That is a meritocracy.

A person who benefit from privelege is an oligarch and does not have merit. They just cheat he the rest of us.

And my other point, while it is cool that people can make money doing all sorts of whacky things, it isn't really that good for our economy, to have concentration of wealth and priveleged status is a supposedly free market.
But hey, go ahead and deregulate, it is the excesses of the capitalist system that give us socialists leverage.
 
Shanek & Suddenly---Let's just ask Martha Stewart...and settle this once and for all.:hit:

And Suddenly...that's "Iamme" ...not "Lamme" :D
 

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