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Depleted Uranium Weaponry

Antiquehunter

Degenerate Gambler
Antiquehunter
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
5,088
Hello all,

One of my colleagues has stumbled across the following:

http://www.wise-uranium.org/dissaf.html

http://mondediplo.com/2002/03/03uranium

I have done some preliminary googling about, and am unimpressed by what I'm seeing. On the one hand some anecdotal evidence, on the other, people dismissing WHO and UNEP reports out of hand.

My questions:

- Is there any fire behind this smoke?

- What are the real risks to health around depleted uranium? Drinking water / airborne dust / other environmntal risks?

Simplistically, countries contintue to send thousands of troops to Afghanistan - one would expect they've done their homework, as the legal risk if troops return home and start to glow in the dark is pretty huge.

But, I'd like to be able to debunk my colleagues' findings in order to put her at ease, or be able to explain to her with confidence what the real risks are (if any) that DU poses to us who are living and working in Kabul.

Thought I'd turn it over to the forum science gurus...

Your comments greatly appreciated!

-AH.
 
Antiquehunter said:
Hello all,
My questions:

- Is there any fire behind this smoke?
Click to expand...

Probably not

We know there are veterans with chunks of DU in their body. No health problems reported.

- What are the real risks to health around depleted uranium? Drinking water / airborne dust / other environmntal risks?
Click to expand...

Standard heavy metal poisening for the most part. Probably not a good idea to breath the dust.

Simplistically, countries contintue to send thousands of troops to Afghanistan - one would expect they've done their homework, as the legal risk if troops return home and start to glow in the dark is pretty huge.
Click to expand...

Problem is they won't glow in the dark. Low level radition poisening is a difficult one. The science is so political.

But, I'd like to be able to debunk my colleagues' findings in order to put her at ease, or be able to explain to her with confidence what the real risks are (if any) that DU poses to us who are living and working in Kabul.
Click to expand...

Zero. U-238 kicks out alpha radition at a very low level. Alpha radition is not going to penitrate more than a few cm of air of a bit of paper.

The study you linked to shows the uranium in the drinking water is not from depelated uranium.
 
The amount of radiation from depleted uranium is LOWER than background radiation in most of the world. It would be a good shield from radiation, actually, given it's density. Alpha radiation is big, so big that your skin will shield you against it. If you ingest it, then you can have problems. However, I don't think ingestion of DU is really a problem, is it, considering that even the alpha radiation is small?
 
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thaiboxerken said:
However, I don't think ingestion of DU is really a problem, is it?
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When a DU projectile hits a target it bisicaly turns to dust. Being near it means there is a fair chance you will breath it in.
 
Sure there is, however, the dangers from ingesting of radiation is low, since the radiation level in DU is very low. You'd be at more risk inhaling dust from the ground. DU poses more of a risk as a dense metal than from any radiological reason.
 
Thanks thaiboxer and geni - can either of you provide me some links showing the low risk of danger caused by the types of radiation found in DU?

In the anecdotal evidence of the articles I find by googling, they allege dramatically increased cancer risks, birth defects etc... so I'd like to be able to rebut with something convincing.

Thanks!

-AH.
 
Depleted uranium is radioactive, but not very. It's primarly a weak alpha emitter.

The danger with it is not radiation, but rather chemical toxicity. It's a heavy metal. It's perfectly safe to handle with your hands, but you would want to wash them afterward.

As far as the level of toxicity, it's not acutely toxic in the same way something like arsenic(sp?) is. I've heard it compaired to lead. Obviously you would not want to ingest lead or have your kids play with it, but having a few lead weights in your tackle box or a roll of lead-based solder in your drawer isn't really anything to panic about.

From what I understand handeling the shells (prior to firing) is generally not a problem, becase they are relatively solid and often have a thin outer shell around the DU.

DU is pyromatic, so it will combust when it strikes the target, and can result in uranium smoke and aresol. Of course, if you're that close, that will probably be the least of your worries.

The dust won't stay in the air very long though. (Uranium and it's compounds are obviously very very heavy)

As for uranium poluting ground water: it certainly is possible, if there were a real real lot in a watershed area, but I would doubt that it could make a signifficant impact from just the shells.

More likely, it's narutally occuring.


One has to remember, that there are plenty of toxic things in this world. Heavy metals and other minerals can exist both in natural deposits as well as from the human activities.
 
Antiquehunter said:
Thanks thaiboxer and geni - can either of you provide me some links showing the low risk of danger caused by the types of radiation found in DU?

In the anecdotal evidence of the articles I find by googling, they allege dramatically increased cancer risks, birth defects etc... so I'd like to be able to rebut with something convincing.

Thanks!

-AH.
Click to expand...


Here's a couple links on it. You can find more on hps.org. The Health Physics Society is really a great organization for getting real non-hyped information on radiation and radiation safety.

http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q746.html

http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q1906.html
 
Anyone want to see a video of me holding some depleted uranium? Hell...I'll even put it next to my head.

I can also show you the radiation level with a geiger counter.

I'm too tired to do it now....maybe tomorrow.
 
That reminds me of Rickover drinking reactor coolant water. It's "ballsy" to those who don't understand radiation.
 
Oh by the way:

I noticed your name suggests you are into antiques...

Do ya happen to have any fiestaware or similar products with an orange glazed color around? and older 30 years or so?

Also...any green translucent glass?

;-)
 
thaiboxerken said:
That reminds me of Rickover drinking reactor coolant water. It's "ballsy" to those who don't understand radiation.
Click to expand...


Someone once bet my friend he wouldn't stick a paperclip in an electric outlet. So he did...in the ground prong.

and when they asked he said "yeah. I got a pretty bad shock, but I can handle it"
 
DRBUZZ0 said:
Oh by the way:

I noticed your name suggests you are into antiques...

Do ya happen to have any fiestaware or similar products with an orange glazed color around? and older 30 years or so?

Also...any green translucent glass?

;-)
Click to expand...

None that I'd eat out of, naturally... ;)

Yeah - and I scrape all the luminiscent material off my wristwatches too...

-AH.
 
Antiquehunter said:
Yeah - and I scrape all the luminiscent material off my wristwatches too...

-AH.
Click to expand...


Um that might not be a great idea. Under the glass it's mostly harmless. You don't want to breath that dust though. If you are going to remove it to refurb the watch, you best not do it dry. And in any case. Gloves...mask...put down protective stuff.... yea

A little bit from a watch you can probably throw away... but man...you don't want that stuff piling up or anything. be careful

radium and uranium are very different
 
I was being sarcastic...

I only work on movements, anyways. I send dials out to be refurbed - I don't have the skills / tools.

-AH.
 
Coincidentaly, on a forum I do moderate someone posted yesterday an ultra hyped message about heath hazards resulting from use of DU ammunitions. I did then some preliminary search. Its results may be relevant here:
  • WHO depleted uranium factsheet

  • Depleted uranium exposure and health effects in Gulf War veterans (abstract) (Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London. Series B, Biological Sciences):
    • "With the exception of the elevated urine U excretion, no clinically significant expected U-related health effects have been identified to date. Subtle changes in renal function and genotoxicity markers in veterans with urine U concentrations greater than 0.1mug(-1) creatinine, however, indicate the need for continued surveillance of these DU-exposed veterans." (NB: this study is about "Gulf War veterans who were in or on US Army vehicles hit by friendly fire involving DU munitions")

  • Health Effects of Depleted Uranium on Exposed Gulf War Veterans: A 10-Year Follow-Up (same study as above) (Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Part A):
    • "Findings to date reveal a persistent elevation of urine uranium, more than 10 yr after exposure, in those veterans with retained shrapnel fragments. The excretion is presumably from ongoing mobilization of DU from fragments oxidizing in situ. Other clinical outcomes related to urine uranium measures have revealed few abnormalities. Renal function is normal despite the kidney’s expected involvement as the “critical” target organ of uranium toxicity. Subtle perturbations in some proximal tubular parameters may suggest early although not clinically significant effects of uranium exposure. A mixed picture of genotoxic outcomes is also observed"

  • Teratogenicity of depleted uranium aerosols: A review from an epidemiological perspective (Environmental Health):
    • "Regarding the teratogenicity of parental prenatal exposure to DU aerosols, the evidence, albeit imperfect, indicates a high probability of substantial risk."

  • Study of the reproductive effects in rats surgically implanted with depleted uranium for up to 90 days (abstract) (Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Part A):
    • "Adult male and female Sprague-Dawley rats (P1 generation) were surgically implanted with 0, 4, 8, or 12 DU pellets (1 x 2 mm). The P1 generation was then cross-mated at 30 d post surgical implantation. Urine collected from P1 animals at 27 d post surgical implantation showed that DU was excreted in the urine of DU-implanted animals in a dose-dependent manner. DU surgical implantation did not have a negative impact on P1 reproductive success, survival, or body weight gain through post surgical implantation d 90. There were no statistically significant differences in F1 birth weight, survival, and litter size at postnatal day (PND) 0, 5, and 20. No gross physical abnormalities identified in the offspring were attributable to neonatal DU exposure. A series of neurodevelopment and immune function assessments were also conducted on F1 offspring. No group differences were observed that were related to parental DU exposure."

  • Mortality among US Veterans of the Persian Gulf War: 7-Year Follow-up (American Journal of Epidemiology):
    • "In summary, over 7 years of follow-up, veterans who served in the Persian Gulf during the Gulf War were at greater risk for death due to motor vehicle accidents than their non-Gulf counterparts. However, during the same period, the risk decreased steadily over time. The lower risk of death due to disease-related causes observed earlier among Gulf veterans all but disappeared in the most recent follow-up period. For both Gulf veterans and non-Gulf veterans, mortality risk remained less than half that expected in their civilian counterparts."

  • Incidence of cancer among UK Gulf war veterans: Cohort study (BMJ):
    • "our results confirm that there is no overall increase in incidence of or mortality from cancer among UK Gulf veterans. Neither was the incidence of cancer higher among those veterans who reported specific exposures during their deployment. Although this study should provide some reassurance of a lack of association between deployment to the Gulf and increased risk of cancer, the long latent period for cancer requires that these cohorts should continue to be followed up and their experience of cancer monitored."

  • Is Burning Semen Syndrome a Variant Form of Seminal Plasma Hypersensitivity? (Obstetrics & Gynecology) [comment: someone did suggest, without evidence, this problem might also be linked to DU exposure]:
    • "the results of this study revealed that couples from the general population with seminal plasma hypersensitivity and Gulf War couples with burning semen syndrome have similar overlapping features. The precise causes and triggers for seminal plasma hypersensitivity in general population couples and for burning semen syndrome in Gulf War couples remain unknown. However, more detailed assessment of a Gulf War population with burning semen syndrome in this investigation not only identified a subgroup of couples with seminal plasma hypersensitivity but also suggested a basis for successful treatment."

  • Genotoxic and inflammatory effects of depleted uranium particles inhaled by rats (abstract) (Toxicological Sciences):
    • "Our results show that exposure to DU by inhalation resulted in DNA strand breaks in broncho-alveolar lavage (BAL) cells and in increase of inflammatory cytokine expression and production of hydroperoxides in lung tissue suggesting that the DNA damage was in part a consequence of the inflammatory processes and oxidative stress."




PS: I made an extensive search on JREF Forum and found allusions and links to in depth discussions about this issue prior to 2003. Unfortunately the links don't work anymore, and the search engine(s) don't return results prior to 2003. How then to find them without resorting to paranormal means?
 
Depleted Uranium IS used as radiation shielding, btw.

I would be more worried about being SHOT in the war zone, than what the bullets are made of, personally.

I did have some links in a thread on this topic, but I don't know what became of the thread in the forum upgrade and such.

Radiation risks from depleted uranium: negligable.

Risk of physical harm from having it flying at you at supersonic speeds: HUGE.
 
Most powdered metals are damaging to health. You wouldn't want to breath powdered lead, even though it's not radioactive. It's not just heavy metals either; powdered beryllium is very nasty stuff.
 
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