Deos Timmy Go To Hell?

[BPSCG]

Saw an old South Park two-parter the last couple of nights that raised an interesting question for me. I intend to ask the fundies next time they come knocking, but let me throw it out here first.

Here's the setup: The kids - Kyle, Stan, Kenny, and Cartman - find out from the local gung-ho parish priest that anyone who doesn't confess his sins and take communion is going to suffer the eternal hellfire (sorry, couldn't resist). They're all scared to death, even Kyle, who's Jewish.

"You mean if we eat the crackers and drink the wine, we won't go to Hell? Gimme some of them crackers!"

Well, the nun who's teaching them how this all works tells them that first they have to confess their sins to the priest (who, BTW, spends at least some of his time in the confessional knocking the bottom out of the female members of the congregation). One of the boys asks, what about Timmy?

Timmy, for those of you who don't watch the show, is severely mentally retarded, spastic, and confined to a wheelchair (he's in the same class as the other boys because the teachers think he just has attention-deficit disorder). Timmy's so mentally retarded that the only speech he's capable of is to shout out his name in a disturbingly gutteral grown man's voice (TIMM-UH!!!.

The boys explain all this to the nun; if Timmy can't even speak, how's he supposed to confess his sins? Is he going to go to Hell?

The nun gives them a logical answer: They should ask the priest.

They ask him, he asks if Timmy's been baptized. No, he hasn't. Then Hell awaits him.

The boys decide to take matters into their own hands and the next scene shows Cartman and Stan squirting Timmy, Kyle (the Jewish kid), and Kyle's brother Ike, with a garden hose...

Okay, so here's the question: What is the church doctrine on kids who are so mentally retarded that they not only can't ask for forgiveness for their sins, they can't even conceive of asking for forgiveness, or even conceive of the concept of sin, period. They can't accept Jesus as their savior, because they have no concept of Jesus, sin, salvation, Heaven, or Hell.

Do they go to Hell?

 

[Neutiquam Erro]

Despite the fact that everyone with a Catholic education seems to have encountered that same cruel nun who assured them that unbaptized babies go to Hell, I think the current (post V2) Catechism is more vague. In general, it seems to shy away from direct proclamations in favor of "we can't know -- it's in God's hands."

I could quite easily be proven wrong by anyone a bit more familiar with the Catechism.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

I can't answer for Catholicism, but the Southern Baptist interpretation goes something like this (as I learned it):

The thing which sends one to Hell is the willful denial of the gift of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. One who is incapable of grasping the concept of "I've sinned, sin bad, Jesus saves" will not be held accountable and gets a free ticket to Heaven. Thus, small children (who are said to have not yet reached the "age of accountability") and the mentally handicapped escape Hellfire.

 

[BPSCG]

I can't answer for Catholicism, but the Southern Baptist interpretation goes something like this (as I learned it):

The thing which sends one to Hell is the willful denial of the gift of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. One who is incapable of grasping the concept of "I've sinned, sin bad, Jesus saves" will not be held accountable and gets a free ticket to Heaven. Thus, small children (who are said to have not yet reached the "age of accountability") and the mentally handicapped escape Hellfire.

Playing devil's advocate (har!) here: Isn't it both Catholic and Protestant church doctrine that we are all born in a state of sin? And that acceptance of Jesus is the only way to wash that sin clean? If that's the case, then either 1) people whose sins have not been cleansed are getting into Heaven, or 2) there's some other way of getting in besides through Jesus.

Again, just playing devil's advocate, and sharpening up the knives for the next time the fundies come knocking.

 

[AmateurScientist]

I can't answer for Catholicism, but the Southern Baptist interpretation goes something like this (as I learned it):

The thing which sends one to Hell is the willful denial of the gift of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. One who is incapable of grasping the concept of "I've sinned, sin bad, Jesus saves" will not be held accountable and gets a free ticket to Heaven. Thus, small children (who are said to have not yet reached the "age of accountability") and the mentally handicapped escape Hellfire.

Yeah, that's what I learned as well in my few years as a tyke of attending a Southern Baptist church.

Baptism was an expected ritual, but I never got baptized. Somehow, that fact escaped my parents and they never said anything about it to me, but they left it up to me, and I simply couldn't accept the whole thing. I feared what happened to those kids' brains when they got dunked in the tank of water and openly weeped and shook. I didn't want my brain to get washed away like that.

I learned that if you didn't accept Jesus in your heart, you wouldn't be saved. In other words, you would burn in hell forever. Very young kids and the mentally challenged got a free pass.

Who didn't get a free pass were those who merely never heard of Jesus. Thus, it was the solemn duty of all Good Christians (TM thingie here, and I don't feel like searching for the right vBull tag), at least all Good Southern Baptists, anyway, to witness for Christ, and to go to missions in far away places to spread the Gospel to all those Godless heathens.

Baptists are never too busy to drop what they're doing to show you their travelogue photos from their recent mission to Honduras or Tanzania, where they spent their time erecting cinderblock churchs and digging drainage ditches. Jesus does love cinderblock structures. I'm sure those Hondurans feel much better now.

AS

 

[Donks]

Surely you know that only Mormons go to Heaven. So Sayeth South Park. Although they might have started taking in others, what with the war with Hell and all that.

In any case, the answer from the Hillside Free Methodist Church.

 

[AmateurScientist]

Playing devil's advocate (har!) here: Isn't it both Catholic and Protestant church doctrine that we are all born in a state of sin? And that acceptance of Jesus is the only way to wash that sin clean? If that's the case, then either 1) people whose sins have not been cleansed are getting into Heaven, or 2) there's some other way of getting in besides through Jesus.

Again, just playing devil's advocate, and sharpening up the knives for the next time the fundies come knocking.

That's a great point. I think they already have an answer for you. Those persons are innocent lambs of God. They are the meek and helpless. Jesus loves them (of course he loves you, too, but you're still not getting into Heaven until you let Him into your heart). Something like that.

AS

 

[AmateurScientist]

Surely you know that only Mormons go to Heaven. So Sayeth South Park. Although they might have started taking in others, what with the war with Hell and all that.

In any case, the answer from the Hillside Free Methodist Church.

I don't know. My Church of Christ friends won't openly so it, but they all believe that they are the only Real Christians.

AS

 

[BPSCG]

Those persons are innocent lambs of God.

(emphasis mine) "Innocent", means they are free of sin?

If so, then there needs to be an asterisk after that part of the Church doctrine that says we are all born sinful.

 

[AmateurScientist]

(emphasis mine) "Innocent", means they are free of sin?

If so, then there needs to be an asterisk after that part of the Church doctrine that says we are all born sinful.

Stop making sense, man. You'll never get anywhere with them like that.

AS

 

[Lisa Simpson]

I wondered about this very question when we were watching the 'Religious Icons' episode of Bullsh!t. For those of you who didn't see it, at one point they talk about Little Audrey. She nearly drowned to death as a young child and is now profoundly retarded. Statues of Jesus now weep oil (vegetable oil and chicken fat "Jesus tastes like chicken!"). People come from all around to see the little zoo animal...I mean miracle. However, Little Audrey is far too disabled to be able to confess or understand the concept of sin and salvation. So is this little "miracle" going to go to heaven?

 

[BPSCG]

I wondered about this very question when we were watching the 'Religious Icons' episode of Bullsh!t. For those of you who didn't see it, at one point they talk about Little Audrey. She nearly drowned to death as a young child and is now profoundly retarded. Statues of Jesus now weep oil (vegetable oil and chicken fat "Jesus tastes like chicken!"). People come from all around to see the little zoo animal...I mean miracle. However, Little Audrey is far too disabled to be able to confess or understand the concept of sin and salvation. So is this little "miracle" going to go to heaven?

Usually, when Penn talks about some BS-er, he leads into that segment with, "...and then there's this ass hole..." You can tell he's having a good time at the a-hole's expense.

But in Little Audrey's case, his whole demeanor changed. Instead of his usual snorting and braying, he got very subdued in his fervent wishes that dreadful things would happen to Audrey's mother.

Hard to disagree with him. What kind of garbage wrapped in skin would put her own frightfully crippled child on display like that? And use her to hoax up some miracles so the ignoranti would leave "donations" for you?

I wonder what portion of the "donations" Audrey's mommy reports to the IRS...

Ugh. I need to take a bath in Lysol just thinking about it.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Playing devil's advocate (har!) here: Isn't it both Catholic and Protestant church doctrine that we are all born in a state of sin? And that acceptance of Jesus is the only way to wash that sin clean? If that's the case, then either 1) people whose sins have not been cleansed are getting into Heaven, or 2) there's some other way of getting in besides through Jesus.

Yes, that's the doctrine.

I suppose the solution might run something along these lines:

Christ's death on the cross was a payment for all the sins of all men, past, present, and future. Therefore, in one sense, everyone has been forgiven. However, one must still accept the gift to be saved--nomrally. If someone is unable to accept the gift as they cannot comprehend the offering, God, being merciful, will allow them in the back door anyway.

quote:

---

Originally posted by AmateurScientist
Who didn't get a free pass were those who merely never heard of Jesus. Thus, it was the solemn duty of all Good Christians (TM thingie here, and I don't feel like searching for the right vBull tag), at least all Good Southern Baptists, anyway, to witness for Christ, and to go to missions in far away places to spread the Gospel to all those Godless heathens.

---

I heard conflicting answers to this my whole life. Some believed that those who had never heard were just SOL. Others held that God would reveal Himself some way to them and present them with a choice, and that would determine their eternal home. A few even suggested that, unlike everyone else who had heard about JC, they would be judged by their works alone, so if they were decent chaps, they'd get by.

This whole issue, by the way, was one of the early sources of my doubts about Christianity.

 

[Neutiquam Erro]

I heard conflicting answers to this my whole life. Some believed that those who had never heard were just SOL. Others held that God would reveal Himself some way to them and present them with a choice, and that would determine their eternal home. A few even suggested that, unlike everyone else who had heard about JC, they would be judged by their works alone, so if they were decent chaps, they'd get by.

This whole issue, by the way, was one of the early sources of my doubts about Christianity.

I was also raised Southern Baptist, and I will add to your list the notion that God has somehow inspired everyone with an instinctive knowledge of the "truth." You don't get away with the old, "missionaries never made it this far up the Amazon" excuse. Most garden-variety Souther Baptists, however, would rather skip the dessert table at the summer pot-luck than directly confront such a challenging question. In general, they will just respond by gently questioning your faith: "Don't you believe that God is merciful?"

 

[AmateurScientist]

quote:

---

Originally posted by AmateurScientist
Who didn't get a free pass were those who merely never heard of Jesus. Thus, it was the solemn duty of all Good Christians (TM thingie here, and I don't feel like searching for the right vBull tag), at least all Good Southern Baptists, anyway, to witness for Christ, and to go to missions in far away places to spread the Gospel to all those Godless heathens.

---

I heard conflicting answers to this my whole life. Some believed that those who had never heard were just SOL. Others held that God would reveal Himself some way to them and present them with a choice, and that would determine their eternal home. A few even suggested that, unlike everyone else who had heard about JC, they would be judged by their works alone, so if they were decent chaps, they'd get by.

This whole issue, by the way, was one of the early sources of my doubts about Christianity.

Jesus, nearly all of it was conflicting to me, and I was 10 when I left altogether and refused to go back.

The revealing himself to heathens part wouldn't have flown in my church. That would have flown in the face of the whole raison d'etre (I have no idea how to do accents on my keyboard) of missions. Missions seemed to be 80% of the purpose of my church. Every sermon contained detailed reports about the great work of the Lord that Mr. and Mrs. Smith and their 14 delegates were doing in Ethiopia. Pass the collection plate. We've got to hurry up and save those heathens before they die.

AS

 

[AmateurScientist]

I was also raised Southern Baptist, and I will add to your list the notion that God has somehow inspired everyone with an instinctive knowledge of the "truth." You don't get away with the old, "missionaries never made it this far up the Amazon" excuse. Most garden-variety Souther Baptists, however, would rather skip the dessert table at the summer pot-luck than directly confront such a challenging question. In general, they will just respond by gently questioning your faith: "Don't you believe that God is merciful?"

Maybe I missed the whole point of it then. Must have been because I never got baptized.

Oh well.

Hey, how do you keep a Baptist from drinking the 12-pack in your boat when you take him on a fishing trip?




























Take two Baptists.

AS

 

[CplFerro]

Given the presumption that those who die in childhood automatically "go to heaven" under these dogmas, hasn't it ever occured to anyone that the ideal Christian is one who proceeds to execute as many innocent children as possible, thus sparing them the infinitely dangerous possibility of going to hell? Said mass murderer can, of course, later repent for his sins, so everybody wins.

I just wonder why there hasn't ever been a philosophical Christian murderer operating on that premise. It seems watertight to me.

 

[Neutiquam Erro]

Hey, how do you keep a Baptist from drinking the 12-pack in your boat when you take him on a fishing trip?

One thing I can say with confidence is that, in my experience, there is very little hypocrisy with respect to alcohol. This prohibition is deeply ingrained in Baptist culture in the Southern U.S., and the notion of moderate, much less "casual" consumption is as alien as hot tea. My parents and in-laws will never accept that my wife and I drink occasionally (and very, very modestly). I'm quite sure more than one prayer has been offered on our behalf after we were observed splitting a single bottle of beer. This attitude is so prevalent that it's rarely even brought up. I was 30 yrs old before I ever attended a wedding where alcohol was served. Christmas and New Years always passed without so much as a thought for brandy or champaigne.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Given the presumption that those who die in childhood automatically "go to heaven" under these dogmas, hasn't it ever occured to anyone that the ideal Christian is one who proceeds to execute as many innocent children as possible, thus sparing them the infinitely dangerous possibility of going to hell? Said mass murderer can, of course, later repent for his sins, so everybody wins.

But that is robbing the child of its (future) free will as regards salvation. In a way, it is playing God, because it would be taking it upon oneself to decide the fate of other souls.

Welcome, btw.

 

[Lisa Simpson]

One thing I can say with confidence is that, in my experience, there is very little hypocrisy with respect to alcohol. This prohibition is deeply ingrained in Baptist culture in the Southern U.S., and the notion of moderate, much less "casual" consumption is as alien as hot tea. My parents and in-laws will never accept that my wife and I drink occasionally (and very, very modestly). I'm quite sure more than one prayer has been offered on our behalf after we were observed splitting a single bottle of beer. This attitude is so prevalent that it's rarely even brought up. I was 30 yrs old before I ever attended a wedding where alcohol was served. Christmas and New Years always passed without so much as a thought for brandy or champaigne.

What about dancing?

When I was in the sixth grade, we went to camp. The camp itself was owned by a Baptist group and on the final night there, we wanted to have a dance. But because the camp was owned by Baptists we weren't allowed to. So we had a burping contest instead. I didn't win.