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Debunk Alert: Experiment to Test for Eutectic Reaction

RedIbis

Philosopher
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
6,899
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvQDFV1HINw&feature=player_embedded

So what's wrong with the experiment? What's it's weaknesses? Does it have any validity? If not, why not?

I don't think it's perfect, but I think this is a very helpful experiment. As Cole points out, whereas there may be sources for sulfur in the building materials, how did it enter the intergranular structure? And if these experiments are relatively easy to conduct, why didn't NIST do any for their final report?

If this video and experiment is not the type of sincere research that can be done by independent scientists, I'd like to know what is. Besides there are shoutouts to Jones, Greening and Mackey. Enjoy.
 
What role would sulfidation, or sulfur at all, play in the weakening of the steel and collapse of the buildings?

Kind of like asking them why they didn't test for pixie dust.

You approach it with the preconceived notion that explosives were used, thermite in particular, and then work backwards...because that is the truther way. I have as much evidence that pixies were behind 9/11 (that being NO evidence) so why not check for pixie dust?

I know I am being extreme here, but you get my drift?

THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE of thermite, so why would sulfur be important to collapse INITIATION?

If it is not important, from a rational, SANE, pov, then why should NIST have conducted such experiments?

TAM:)

Edit: I am sure if he has nothing better to do, Mackey or someone else can actually address the ezperiment, and the errors in truther logic that I AM SURE exist within.
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvQDFV1HINw&feature=player_embedded

So what's wrong with the experiment? What's it's weaknesses? Does it have any validity? If not, why not?

I don't think it's perfect, but I think this is a very helpful experiment. As Cole points out, whereas there may be sources for sulfur in the building materials, how did it enter the intergranular structure? And if these experiments are relatively easy to conduct, why didn't NIST do any for their final report?

If this video and experiment is not the type of sincere research that can be done by independent scientists, I'd like to know what is. Besides there are shoutouts to Jones, Greening and Mackey. Enjoy.

It starts out with a huge fallacy about key Enron documents "being lost" (poisoning the well much) and then switches immediately to the truther cropped video of the collapse, and straight down at near "free fall."

At which point I clicked it off.

I am sure it is vitally important, Red. Please let us know when someone other than a few conspiracy nutballs on the internet take note of it.
 
How about this, Red; next time you post something to debunk, make it your hypothesis on what brought the towers down.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvQDFV1HINw&feature=player_embedded

So what's wrong with the experiment? What's it's weaknesses? Does it have any validity? If not, why not?
.

Since the experimenter has thermate as a hypothesis, his first and essential and obvious experiment would be to get or make some thermate and apply it to the beam and see if the results look anything like the recovered sample.

Until this experiment is done, every other experiment is pointless.

As for this test, IMO (and my unused university chemistry) tells me the video fails because it didn't burn for weeks at high humidity but I'll wait for someone more knowledgeable to chime in.
 
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Why is it always "debunk this" (to any crap anyone wants to string together) instead of the "youtube scientist" doing the work and actually proving the "theory"?
 
Meh. The entire first half of the video does nothing but poison the well and prime the audience to accept a half-assed experiment as proof of a conclusion that's already been made.
 
Dr. Greening responds

I am prepared to admit that my initial proposal as to how steel was sulfided during the 911 events needs to be modified. Certainly it looks like diesel fuel, gypsum, concrete and aluminum alone are not going to do it .....

However, the one thing I would suggest that still makes "natural" sulfidation of steel a real possibility is the inclusion of chlorine in the experiment. Chlorine species would have been present in the WTC fires from the thermal degradation of the very common plastic PVC which is used in many office building items such as flooring tiles, electrical insulation, TV and computer housings, window blinds, plumbing fixtures, etc, etc.

The combustion of PVC releases copious amounts of the very corrosive gas HCl which attacks even stainless steel. HCl and Cl2, alone or in combination, are also known to have a catalytic effect on high temperature steel corrosion that would leave affected areas of steel very vulnurable to subsequent sulfide attack. The type of accelerated corrosion I am referring to has been observed in the gaseous effluent streams of industrial and municipal waste incinerators. So regrettably, before anyone claims victory on this question, I would say that the experiment needs to be repeated with PVC thrown into the mix.

Much more here.
 
First of all, it's a YouTube video. If the authors want to be taken seriously, they should write a paper, and explain their methodology in detail, including the reason why specific aspects of the experiment were chosen to be what they were.

4:36 -"So how can we tell who is not correct?"

This is the specific point at which everything goes off the rails. The video proposes two explanations, one of which is a fully realised hypothesis involving known processes and materials, and the other of which is a vague suggestion with no proposed mechanism or specific sequence of events. With the statement above, it deliberately implies that one of these explanations must be correct, therefore all that's required is the elimination of the other. It's a classic case of the false dilemma fallacy.

5:27 "...aluminum scraps, some from an airplane..."

Cute. A piece of utterly irrelevant information to give the impression that the materials have been carefully chosen.

The temperature wasn't measured beyond the observation that it melted aluminium, but the observation that the steel was glowing red suggests that the temperature was never high enough to reach the melting point of an iron-sulphur eutectic or produce significant decomposition of the gypsum. The duration was about two days, and no particular effort was made to reproduce the exact composition of the WTC7 rubble pile beyond vague guesswork. The conditions of the fire - a well-ventilated, fast-burning, open fire - were nothing like the slow-burning, diffusion-limited and well-insulated fire in the rubble pile. As an attempt to reproduce the conditions seen by the corroded beam, this was more or less worthless.

However, something useful might have been done if the steel beam had been chemically analysed to see whether any sulphur was present in the surface. Some form of chemical analysis might produce some useful information. Simply looking at the steel, observing that there weren't any holes in it, and noting that for the most part it was still sound, is a pathetic mockery of serious analysis. To conclude from this cursory inspection that "The aluminum, concrete, drywall, diesel fuel and building materials did not cause any intergranular melting" (7:26) is utterly unwarranted. Truthers are, as usual, avoiding seeing anything they don't want to by not bothering to look for it properly.

From there, the video degenerates into outright lying. I note with interest at 8:30 that the narrative says "There is a reason why NIST ignored all their advice..." while the text on screen simply begins "NIST ignored all their advice..." - classic poisoning the well, while pretending innocence. And the same at 8:40 - "Perhaps NIST knew that..." is missing from the text.

Nice one at 8:50, where the glowing material coming from WTC2 is (a) identified as molten steel despite the fact that it's not hot enough to be molten steel, and (b) described as coming out of "the tower" to give the deliberate false impression that it came from WTC7, the only tower that's been discussed in the video so far. I see the iron-rich spheroids are now "iron spheroids", and it's suggested that thermite reactions can go on for days.

Oh, and RedIbis, since you're now claiming that you always admitted there was such a thing as thermal expansion and that it happens in all building fires, would you like to join me in pointing out that "a new phenomenon called thermal expansion due to an office fire" is an extraordinarily ignorant description, and quite simply wrong?

And at 9:28, the biggest lie of all: "The murder of thousands on 9/11 wasn't considered a crime, and therefore [was] never investigated as a crime". You heard it here first, folks; Operation PENTTBOM, the largest operation in the history of the FBI, never happened.

Last of all, as others have pointed out, the missing part of the video is the part where anyone demonstrates that thermate can cause erosion and thinning of steel structural members by intergranular eutectic melting. Until someone's demonstrated this, there isn't even a competing hypothesis.

Truther videos make me sick. This laughably incompetent piece of cargo cult science is no exception.

Dave
 
And if these experiments are relatively easy to conduct, why didn't NIST do any for their final report?

It's relatively easy to carry out a poorly-constructed experiment that bears very little resemblance to the conditions it's supposed to be modelling and is virtually guaranteed to give no useful results at all because no attempt is made at analysing the final state of the system. What isn't so easy is conducting experiments that give useful and rigorous conclusions, but the truth movement has yet to find this out because they haven't tried it.

Dave
 
An office fire or a smoldering debris pile fire do not burn hot enough to melt steel.
Sample #1, from WTC 7 was melted by:
"A liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur [molten iron] formed during this hot sulfur attack on the steel. This sulfur rich liquid penetrated preferentially down the grain boundaries of the steel severely weakening the beam and making it susceptible to erosion. The eutectic temperature for this mixture strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of the steel beam approached 1,000°C (1,800°F) which is substantially lower than would be expected foe melting this steel .
http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apc.pdf

Office fires can burn at a maximum of 1,800 - 2,000 Degrees F but only for a short time. Not anywhere near long enough to melt steel as has been demonstrated in many fires. Debris pile fires burn at much lower temperatures.


Thermate is the only known explanation for the melted beam.
 
An office fire or a smoldering debris pile fire do not burn hot enough to melt steel.
Sample #1, from WTC 7 was melted by:
"A liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur [molten iron] formed during this hot sulfur attack on the steel. This sulfur rich liquid penetrated preferentially down the grain boundaries of the steel severely weakening the beam and making it susceptible to erosion. The eutectic temperature for this mixture strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of the steel beam approached 1,000°C (1,800°F) which is substantially lower than would be expected foe melting this steel .
http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apc.pdf

Office fires can burn at a maximum of 1,800 - 2,000 Degrees F but only for a short time. Not anywhere near long enough to melt steel as has been demonstrated in many fires. Debris pile fires burn at much lower temperatures.


Thermate is the only known explanation for the melted beam.

Maximum of 2,000 degrees? How about car fires? You do know that there were cars in the pile right?

Also, this "office fire" that you suggest can only burn for a "short time", please tell me more about this office? Is it just one office, or is it 110 floors of offices, kitchens, maintenence floors, huge HVAC systems, massive electrical substations, etc etc etc. X's 2?

Show me where thermite can burn for days. I can show you one reason the pile burned for days.
http://firechief.com/mag/firefighting_waterjet_technology_cuts/

In fact, they even invented a tool for firefighters to help in a simmilar situation.
 
Office fires can burn at a maximum of 1,800 - 2,000 Degrees F

Thats one I always love to hear - "office fires".

Do "doctor's" office fires burn at different temperature than say, "lawyer's" office fires? Also, generally speaking, can the smoke plume from "office" fires be seen clearly from the space station?

Just asking questions.
 

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