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Criminalization as a counter-terrorist tactic

Hallam

New Blood
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Messages
23
As a European who has studied counter-terrorism tactics for more than two decades, I find the 'debate' over whether to grant terrorists the 'right' to a criminal trial to be rather peculiar.

From a European perspective it appears to me rather obvious that the Obama administration is adopting the 'criminalization' tactics successfully pioneered by the West German authorities in response to the Red Army Faction (Baader-Meinhof) attacks of the 1960-70s and subsequently adopted by every other European country because they worked.

The British experience of applying tactics similar to those endorsed by the Bush administration is particularly striking. The troops were originally sent into the province to protect the Catholic population from sectarian attacks by 'loyalist' Protestants. After a few years of arbitrary searches, imprisonment without trial and torture-lite, the IRA and INLA had a sufficiently large constituency to carry out a major terrorist campaign.

The British adopted a policy of criminalization with the election of the Wilson government in 1974 and by 1976 the level of violence was markedly down. The terrorists wanted to be treated as political prisoners, not common criminals. That was the issue that Bobby Sands and the other IRA hunger strikers were protesting about. Yet if you look at a graph of the number of deaths due to terrorism in the province over the period of the trouble you will see that they dropped sharply in 1976 when the criminalization policy took force and stayed at around 30% of the previous level until the Good Friday peace process began at which point they dropped again.

Looking round the world it is pretty hard to see an example of the Bush administration counter-terrorism tactics having worked. But despite that fact the debate we see starts from the presumption that there is a conflict between the constitution and effective counter-terrorist policy.

The only area where I can see a conflict is in the area of jury trials. These were abandoned for terrorist trials in the UK after the terrorists threatened to murder the jurors.
 
In the United States there aren't enough terrorists to pose a risk with terrorists murdering the jurors.
 
Looking round the world it is pretty hard to see an example of the Bush administration counter-terrorism tactics having worked. But despite that fact the debate we see starts from the presumption that there is a conflict between the constitution and effective counter-terrorist policy.

Indeed. As skeptics, I'm surprised that the bolded part isn't mentioned more in the politics subforums when the Bush approach to the War on Terror is brought up.

What is the evidence that the approach has been effective?

A Pentagon task force in September, 2004 noted the fact that occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan were counter productive to addressing the root cause of terrorism. "Negative attitudes" towards the US were found to be not much helped by conducting two occupations. The gitmo-ization of captivity obviously would not help out with that either.

I posted in another thread the Hari article from the Independent where he seeks out ex-muslim radicals for their thoughts, and they tell us the obvious:

He started to recruit other students, as he had done so many times before. But it was harder. "Everyone hated the [unelected] government [of Hosni Mubarak], and the US for backing it," he says. But there was an inhibiting sympathy for the victims of 9/11 -- until the Bush administration began to respond with Guantanamo Bay and bombs. "That made it much easier. After that, I could persuade people a lot faster."
...
But once they had made that leap to identify with the Umma – the global Muslim community -- they got angrier the more abusive our foreign policy came. Every one of them said the Bush administration's response to 9/11 -- from Guantanamo to Iraq -- made jihadism seem more like an accurate description of the world. Hadiya Masieh, a tiny female former HT organiser, tells me: "You'd see Bush on the television building torture camps and bombing Muslims and you think -- anything is justified to stop this. What are we meant to do, just stand still and let him cut our throats?"​
David Rohde, the journalist held by the Taliban, told us a similar story:

For the next several nights, a stream of Haqqani commanders overflowing with hatred for the United States and Israel visited us, unleashing blistering critiques that would continue throughout our captivity.

Some of their comments were factual. They said large numbers of civilians had been killed in Afghanistan, Iraq and the Palestinian territories in aerial bombings. Muslim prisoners had been physically abused and sexually humiliated in Iraq. Scores of men had been detained in Cuba and Afghanistan for up to seven years without charges.

To Americans, these episodes were aberrations. To my captors, they were proof that the United States was a hypocritical and duplicitous power that flouted international law.

When I told them I was an innocent civilian who should be released, they responded that the United States had held and tortured Muslims in secret detention centers for years. Commanders said they themselves had been imprisoned, their families ignorant of their fate. Why, they asked, should they treat me differently?​
So, what makes this conflict with terrorist elements any different from the IRA conflict when it comes to the effectiveness of "hard", militaristic approaches to terror? Is there some feature of the American conflict that renders it immune to the reactions in wider Muslim society that these harsher approaches create?

As listed above, it seems there is sufficient evidence to conclude that the Bush approach radicalized many more people than other approaches would have.

What are the consequences going to be of this? I think it's way too early to tell. Given that these things can play out over a long time scale, its probable that the ripple effects will be felt for several decades.
 
The US adventure into Iraq by Bush 43 was a criminal act in itself.
Proceeded by a complete lack of understanding of the culture of Islam, and what might work to move Islam into a closer relation with the modern world.
That lack of consideration included a miserable failure to investigate what has and hasn't worked in similar situations around the world.
Just a blithe "They'll welcome us with open arms" silliness, with no planning at all for the post-victory phase.
The WWII German penetration into the Ukraine was first welcomed by the Ukranians, as a positive relief from the Stalinist oppression, but the subsequent atrocities by the SS and various Einsatzgruppen organized a stiff resistance to everything German.
More severe than the Iraqi response to the US destruction of their infrastructure, but the US is seeing similar opposition, even though overall the US is not as barbaric in the treatment of the citizens.
 
I fail to see the value in using the actions of Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein as a yardstick against which to measure the US.

From a sheer propaganda point of view I cannot offhand think of any other country that created such copious photographic evidence of their war crimes as the US did at Abu Ghraib.

One of the rather worrying assumptions underlying the Bush era counter-terrorism policy was the belief that any terrorist threat would be either foreign or from domestic elements sympathetic to foreign groups. The threat from the likes of Timothy McVeigh was completely ignored.

Now we have the Fox News Tea Party movement claiming that Obama is not a legitimate president and it is time to take back the government by force of arms. And there is not a single member of the GOP who will say a word of criticism. It is really a matter of when, not if there is a mass murder committed by one or more of the loons that is being drawn to the Tea Party movement.
 
... It is really a matter of when, not if there is a mass murder committed by one or more of the loons that is being drawn to the Tea Party movement.
.
I'd not be surprised. That is the tactic of the mullahs enticing impressionable people into strapping on the bombs and murdering who knows how many people they don't even know.
Dying violently for a political idea is somewhat foreign to the west, but toss in the religious bias and the naive may just go for that.
 
The law enforcement aproach is the one the french took with their algerian troublemakers in the 90s. It appears to have mostly worked.
 
As a European who has studied counter-terrorism tactics for more than two decades, I find the 'debate' over whether to grant terrorists the 'right' to a criminal trial to be rather peculiar.

From a European perspective it appears to me rather obvious that the Obama administration is adopting the 'criminalization' tactics successfully pioneered by the West German authorities in response to the Red Army Faction (Baader-Meinhof) attacks of the 1960-70s and subsequently adopted by every other European country because they worked.

The British experience of applying tactics similar to those endorsed by the Bush administration is particularly striking. The troops were originally sent into the province to protect the Catholic population from sectarian attacks by 'loyalist' Protestants. After a few years of arbitrary searches, imprisonment without trial and torture-lite, the IRA and INLA had a sufficiently large constituency to carry out a major terrorist campaign.

The British adopted a policy of criminalization with the election of the Wilson government in 1974 and by 1976 the level of violence was markedly down. The terrorists wanted to be treated as political prisoners, not common criminals. That was the issue that Bobby Sands and the other IRA hunger strikers were protesting about. Yet if you look at a graph of the number of deaths due to terrorism in the province over the period of the trouble you will see that they dropped sharply in 1976 when the criminalization policy took force and stayed at around 30% of the previous level until the Good Friday peace process began at which point they dropped again.

Looking round the world it is pretty hard to see an example of the Bush administration counter-terrorism tactics having worked. But despite that fact the debate we see starts from the presumption that there is a conflict between the constitution and effective counter-terrorist policy.

The only area where I can see a conflict is in the area of jury trials. These were abandoned for terrorist trials in the UK after the terrorists threatened to murder the jurors.

Though I agree, I should mention that the RAF was in territory the Germans controlled, and the IRA was in a region the British controlled.
AQ was a sub-group of a loosely organised Arab Islamist movement whose presence was tolerated by the tribal and theocratic rulers of a failed state halfway around the world.

And after eight years there, we still don't control it. So the situations are not exactly comparable.

ETA for clarity: I do agree that the problem of terrorism is best defined as a legal problem, not a military one.
The military approach has proven extremely expensive (in many ways) and extremely counter-productive.
 
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ETA for clarity: I do agree that the problem of terrorism is best defined as a legal problem, not a military one.
The military approach has proven extremely expensive (in many ways) and extremely counter-productive.
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And they can't learn.
"Drone plan opens new war front"... LA Times today.
The US is now going to use drones to attack AQ sites in Pakistan's cities.
No doubt using the excellent intelligence provided by the Pakistan equivalent of "Curve Ball", who performed so well with feeding us "intelligence" on WMDs in Iraq.
Dumb and always getting dumber!
 
Criminalization as a counter-terrorist tactic
Worked well in Spain, in March, 2004.

Oh, wait, it didn't.

Worked in Sri lanka for 20 years.

Oh, wait, it didn't.

Prevented terror attacks through out the mid east and Africa in the 1990's.

Oh, wait, it didn't.

There is certainly a role for law enforcement to play in dealing with terroristic acts and activities, and catching some of the prospective perps ahead of time.

The facts are that law enforcement is mostly reactive. If you live in a relatively open society, you can either close it up a bit, or you can run the risk of such acts as a risk of being an open society.

"Law enforcement is the answer" is IMO incorrect. It is part of the answer.

DR
 
I'm no expert, but from our experiences since 9/11 I would gauge that the military is of most use if terrorists concentrate enough to be a viable target, and not so good if they're disperse and hidden.
 
I'm no expert, but from our experiences since 9/11 I would gauge that the military is of most use if terrorists concentrate enough to be a viable target, and not so good if they're disperse and hidden.
For me the distinction is between "sleepers" who infiltrate a community for the purpose of launching a suprise attack using terror tactics, and insurgents who attempt to carry out a guerrilla insurgency using terror tactics.

Also, am I the only one that's noticed that for the past 8 years, most "terrorism" has been in places where insurgent factions can reasonably expect to have a significant influence on political outcomes that benefit them directly (or even have a chance of taking control of the government)?

For all its spectacular display, 9/11 didn't really do much for Al Qaeda. Even as a recruiting poster, I think it's been pretty much a bust. The similar, smaller attacks in England and Spain also don't seem to have gained terrorist organizations much influence or power in those countries.

Iraq, on the other hand... Afghanistan, Pakistan... these are places where terrorist factions can hope to see a real, immediate, political payoff. Not some fancy mumbo-jumbo about "sticking it to the man", that feels good in a fantasy-fulfilment kind of way, but doesn't really do much to soothe the soul or solve the more immediate problems.

As an agenda, "punish the Great Satan" seems to be much less attractive to terrorists than "destabilize the current regime", "drive off the opposition faction", "carve out a petty domain", "assassinate our political rivals before the next elections", etc.
 
As an agenda, "punish the Great Satan" seems to be much less attractive to terrorists than "destabilize the current regime", "drive off the opposition faction", "carve out a petty domain", "assassinate our political rivals before the next elections", etc.
This makes one wonder: was Bush's strat actually "get a war started over there so they are too busy killing each other to try and fight us over here?"

Again, your enemy is not obliged to play by your template, but if the intent was to give suicide bombers a better place to play, then getting Iraq stirred up seems to have been a successful strat. :p

DR
 
I'll point out that the only terrorists we are fighting via the military are those who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks, and those that helped them.

All others are fought with conventional law enforcement, yes even under Bush.
 
I'll point out that the only terrorists we are fighting via the military are those who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks, and those that helped them.

All others are fought with conventional law enforcement, yes even under Bush.

WC, don't mean to piss in your soup here, but we spent some years in Iraq fighting The War on Terror, to include the "dead enders" and "insurgents" from Al Anbar province, An Najaf, and much else. I even have a medal in a box somewhere that says I got to participate in this venture.

At the moment, you can argue that our joint ventures with the Iraqi Army still target some terror/guerilla groups in Iraq who are not Al Q.

In Afghanistan, if we decide that Al Q and Taliban are still loosely cooperating (are they??) then yes.

The drone strikes into Pakistan seem to hit both.

DR
 
I'm no expert, but from our experiences since 9/11 I would gauge that the military is of most use if terrorists concentrate enough to be a viable target, and not so good if they're disperse and hidden.

Yes.

In Sri Lanka they tried to play conventional army.
Then they met a real conventional army.

End of story. (I hope)
 
WC, don't mean to piss in your soup here, but we spent some years in Iraq fighting The War on Terror, to include the "dead enders" and "insurgents" from Al Anbar province, An Najaf, and much else. I even have a medal in a box somewhere that says I got to participate in this venture.

At the moment, you can argue that our joint ventures with the Iraqi Army still target some terror/guerilla groups in Iraq who are not Al Q.
Of course we will fight terrorist groups threatening Iraq, because we have a security agreement with Iraq. I don't think anyone is suggesting prosecuting terrorist acts in Iraq in US criminal courts?

In Afghanistan, if we decide that Al Q and Taliban are still loosely cooperating (are they??) then yes.

The drone strikes into Pakistan seem to hit both.

DR
The Taliban and al Qaeda were and are closely allied with each other. Inseparable at this point.
 

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