Cravings vs. Appetite

[Kaylee]

From the thread: "Fat" Gene Found by Scientists

This is an area I'll be happy to discuss anything about. Starting with the difference between cravings and appetite, perhaps?

This is quite interesting. Leptin is part of a negative feedback system (a.k.a homeostasis). I.e. whatever weight you are your body tries to maintain it. I've got more details about appetite and feeding behaviour in a neuroscience book.

Thanks Ivor, that's a very interesting area indeed. If you are interested in discussing leptin, ghrelin, NPY etc and their roles in appetite and cravings regulation, start a new thread and I'll chime in.

You're on!

Last year I looked into this quickly. What I came away with was that having a lot of sugar in one's diet increased the likelihood that one would get sugar cravings and overeat.

Processed American foods are likely to have a lot of sugar in it. These are some of the alternate names for sugar:
http://www.wellnesstips.ca/sugar.htm

Anything that ends in "ose" is a form of sugar, such as glucose, sucrose, fructose, maltose, lactose, dextrose, galactose etc. Also watch for "monosaccharides" or "disaccharides", which are also fancy names for sugar.

WHO recommends that people eat less than 10% of their total daily calorie intake in added "free" sugar.
( http://www.reducetriglycerides.com/diet_triglycerides_sugar.htm )

Because of the American labeling laws that is not easy to do in the USA. The amount of sugar the food has is listed in grams, but it's not possible to tell how much was added by the food manufacturer and how much was already a part of the food. What I do is look for foods with less than 3 different forms of sugar and have them listed in the back rather than the head of the ingredient listing. (Order of the ingredient listing is determined by the amount of the ingredient used.)

Effects of sugar:
http://arstechnica.com/journals/science.ars/2006/06/14/4324

Fructose, on the other hand, is not metabolized in the same way. In fact, it is only broken down in the liver, and stimulates production of glycogen, a complex polysaccharide, and lipids, so most of the energy contained gets stored, rather than used. In addition, fructose does not cause a satiating response, and does not stimulate insulin production in the short term, and can cause insulin resistance following chronic exposure. Finally, fructose also increases production of LDL cholesterol, which is the bad kind that is a driving force in CVD.

( I added the bolding.)

IIRC, corn syrup is fructose. And of course HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) would be fructose!

Last year I also read the book, "Lick the Sugar Habit" by Nancy Appleton. I am uncertain that she is a credible source because I don't have a strong background in the sciences. However, on the off chance that she was correct, I decided to try to find a source of sugar with trace elements that were not processed out -- the theory being that the body would be able to metabolize the sugars better without any undesired side effects.

So even though it's pricey, I use Rapadura. I don't like the taste as much as white sugar, but as far as I can tell it seems to give me less of a sugar rush. Of course since it looks and taste different, it would be impossible for me to set up an informal double blind test even with the help of a friend.

 

[El Greco]

Thanks for starting this, Kaylee. Just give me a couple of days to prepare something better than my usual posts here (I'd start immediately but Wednesday to Friday I'll be working 13 hours days). This is a huuuuge subject!

 

[jimlintott]

I'm a person who has made a very concious effort to reduce the amount of sugar I eat. It was partly inspired by my parents who had changed their lives with the Atkins diet. They lost a ton of weight and have kept it off for several years now and changed their eating habits entirely.

So I almost never drink soda pop. I go for salty rather than sugary snacks and have cut down on starchy foods like rice, potatoes and pasta. I found that food products made from enriched white flour were causing me problems which have gone away since I only eat whole grain breads and pasta. Whole grain pasta tastes better anyway.

I eat two fried eggs and two strips of bacon for breakfast everyday around 08:00. I don't even feel hungry again until about 14:00. I think there is something to the sugars leaving you hungry thing.

I'm not on a strict diet and eat whatever I please but reducing sugar consumption I believe has made me healthier. I don't worry about fat and my last physical showed normal cholesterol levels.

Like anyone else I like sugar but now rarely crave it. I have found that I don't mind the feeling of hunger anymore. I'll go for hours ignoring hunger pangs.

For anyone's interest my BMI is 23.

 

[parrotslave]

PBS just had a special on fat where they talked about the neural network in the gut, calling it a second brain. They said that one of the reasons gastric bypass surgery works is because it cuts a major nerve that carries signals from the gut brain to the head brain.

I wish food labels would tell us the glycemic load of foods. It would make it harder for them to hide the sugars and other simple carbs.

 

[Kaylee]

Thanks for starting this, Kaylee. Just give me a couple of days to prepare something better than my usual posts here (I'd start immediately but Wednesday to Friday I'll be working 13 hours days). This is a huuuuge subject!

Thanks for volunteering, El Greco! I'm looking forward to your posts.

 

[Dilb]

IIRC, corn syrup is fructose. And of course HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) would be fructose!

Corn syrup starts off as glucose, as starch, like in corn, is made of glucose. HFCS is either 95% fructose, which is what is initially produced, or more commonly 55% fructose, after being mixed with unmodified corn syrup.

 

[Kaylee]

I eat two fried eggs and two strips of bacon for breakfast everyday around 08:00. I don't even feel hungry again until about 14:00. I think there is something to the sugars leaving you hungry thing.

I'm not on a strict diet and eat whatever I please but reducing sugar consumption I believe has made me healthier. I don't worry about fat and my last physical showed normal cholesterol levels.

Congratulations and very interesting! As quoted above, studies show that fructose increases LDL (the bad cholesterol). Your story makes it doubly ironic that many food manufacturers provide low fat products with the fat replaced by HFCS to replace the taste. (Typical example: salad dressing.) It seems most people would be better off getting the non-reduced fat products.

I found that food products made from enriched white flour were causing me problems which have gone away since I only eat whole grain breads and pasta. Whole grain pasta tastes better anyway.

I prefer the taste of whole grain products also -- except for pasta! But maybe I just need to keep trying diff. varieties until I find the one that I like.

If you don't mind my asking -- what problems went away? Food cravings?

 

[Kaylee]

Corn syrup starts off as glucose, as starch, like in corn, is made of glucose. HFCS is either 95% fructose, which is what is initially produced, or more commonly 55% fructose, after being mixed with unmodified corn syrup.

Dilb, thanks for the correction.

 

[ZirconBlue]

I prefer the taste of whole grain products also -- except for pasta! But maybe I just need to keep trying diff. varieties until I find the one that I like.
quote]

We've been using Barilla Plus pasta, which tastes like regular pasta, but which includes "grain and legume flour blend", which adds a lot of fiber, protein, and Omega-3 fats.

 

[Kaylee]

Thanks ZirconBlue, I'll look for it.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Appetite vs cravings.
Anecdote:- Told repeatedly as a kid to "Clear the plate", I find I still do so. I feel guilt if I don't. (The poor children in Africa would love your haggis).

At work, the canteen staff tend to give big portions. In the last three weeks I have insisted they give me 10-15% less. I still clear the plate.
My weight dropped about 3 lbs, then returned to it's previous figure , over 5-6 days. On day 22 it's exactly where I started.
So it seems my body was extracting what it required and dumping the excess. It still is. Why was I not gaining several pounds a month before?

(I was gaining. I've gained about 20 lbs in the last 18 years. I just had to throw away a perfectly good suit because I could no longer easily fasten the trousers. It was only 23 years old. Such a waste of money!)

 

[skeptifem]

someone once told me a tomato craving is a sign of low iron. I had this freakish tomato craving, using french fries more as spoons than food, eating almost straight prego sauce. it seemed to be true, after i started eating more iron it went away. then again i knew a guy who got scurvy, and his body didnt develop cravings for new foods at all(yeah i know really weird, he ate like 2 foods for a year). I think it might depend on the thing your body is craving rather than it being completely black and white.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

There appears to be different circuits in the brain involved in liking and wanting food.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I can't find the stupid link but there was a discussion of weight loss research on my UW TV channel the other night (I've seen it before so it is a year or more old but not so old it isn't valid). Anyway, the speaker said the insulin production hypothesis is not supported by the research.

There is a weight loss/maintained registry collecting data on people who have successfully lost weight and maintained the weight loss for 5 years or more. So far the main features are both increased activity and decreased caloric intake. Surprise surprise.

All the various diets like low fat or low carb have no advantage over any other diet (I think increasing fruit and veges was beneficial, can't remember the details).

And the worst part, very few people succeed. People lose weight then their metabolism slows, they crave food and eat more but the metabolism doesn't catch up as fast as the caloric intake and you gain more than you lost.

A lot of people argue with me but the research supports the fact caloric intake is driven by biological forces that are as strong as the force that makes you breathe. You can voluntarily hold your breath, but not for long. Dieting causes the same effect. Your body says eat and willpower has very little to do with it.

There is a problem with overeating in that once you gain the weight, you can't easily (if at all) lose it. It's akin to having a forward gear but no reverse.

Some of the most promising research is looking at the role the stomach actually plays in triggering one's appetite. Stimulating the stomach can result in the release of neurotransmitters that signal the body to quit eating. It's possible that some of the benefit of these radical bypass surgeries isn't the shrinking of stomach space as much as decreasing the role the stomach has in stimulating one's appetite.

Anyway, that's what I recall from the lecture. Sorry I can't find the link. Makes you want to scream at the person who titled the program so you can't find it with the search engine.

 

[Kaylee]

A lot of people argue with me but the research supports the fact caloric intake is driven by biological forces that are as strong as the force that makes you breathe. You can voluntarily hold your breath, but not for long. Dieting causes the same effect. Your body says eat and willpower has very little to do with it.

But IIRC there are other studies that show that MSG and sugar (including HFCS) affects cravings. Logically avoiding foods that would trigger cravings would help one's willpower immensely.

I"m being lazy and waiting to see what El Greco posts because nutrition and exercise is obviously a strong area of interest for him and he may have the links handy.

But if he doesn't show up, as time permits I will look for these studies and post the links.

To quote a friend, most people' want to look "hot"! How much money do people spend on their clothes, grooming, trendy possessions all in the pursuit of being thought "hot"?

And yet since the late 1970s there's been a radical increase in most people's BMI (which doesn't help most people look "hot"). These correlates to the increase of HFCS and MSG in the American diet. You don't even have to rely on memory (if one is old enough and I am), just look at the old American newscasts and the change in average weight is very obvious.

But again, as time permits -- I'll look for links to these studies.

 

[jimlintott]

If you don't mind my asking -- what problems went away? Food cravings?

Severe indigestion and itchy anus (sorry I had to share that). Either or both will flare up if I eat enriched white flour products. Even a single hamburger on a white bun will effect me.

All the various diets like low fat or low carb have no advantage over any other diet (I think increasing fruit and veges was beneficial, can't remember the details).

The theory behind low carb is that on the same amount of calories you don't feel hungry. When people get hungry they eat. If your diet leaves you hungry it won't be as succesful as a diet where you aren't hungry but eating the same amount of calories. It's much easier to reduce calorie intake when you aren't hungry.

I'm no expert and certainly not a serious dieter. I don't have a weight problem. I know it is anecdotal but I have fewer cravings and feel hungry much less since I stopped worrying about fat and starting worrying about starches and sugars.

 

[El Greco]

I"m being lazy and waiting to see what El Greco posts because nutrition and exercise is obviously a strong area of interest for him and he may have the links handy.

But if he doesn't show up, as time permits I will look for these studies and post the links.

No way I won't show up It's just getting longer than I originally thought, have patience.

 

[ysabella]

This is something I can't prove, but my understanding is that extremely low carb can have another effect - whatever the full homeostatic mechanism is that controls the thyroid, it responds to calories and to carbs. People with thyroid problems should avoid going too low in either for any length of time. Because Atkins starts out so low (20g carbs/day, from non-starchy vegetables) and then you're supposed to ratchet up slowly based on weight loss, it'll stay too low (because you won't be losing, so you won't increase carb intake). It certainly didn't work for me, and I think my hypothyroidism is a part of why.

I think the big surge in low-carb diets is partly a backlash against the years of low-fat diets, which were nearly impossible for people with family history of diabetes. If you're eating bagels, pasta, vegetable soup (especially canned, fat-free, pumped full of HFCS), cereal, and skim milk and you have any kind of tendency to blood sugar problems, your blood sugar and insulin will be all over the place. That will lead to not feeling well, having cravings, etc. I was eating this way in college and it drove me nuts.

Carb management is an important tool in the toolbox if you need to watch your blood sugar. I think the real truth is that nobody needs 300 grams of carbs per day, especially simple ones like sugar. Plenty of Americans take in that much; white bread and fries and soda are a real express train. There are plenty of plans that are not extreme, such as South Beach.

I agree about fats. So many studies talk about the negative effects of fats, and then you look at the diet, and it's high in carbs AND fats. Plus there are a lot of good fats that we should all be eating. And since they are so filling, fats can be another helpful tool for lowering calories. I'm far better off erring on the side of eating extra fat calories than eating extra carbohydrate calories; I'm better off snacking on peanut butter (on a spoon) than bagels.

 

[ysabella]

By the way, I have started a nutrition blog: http://www.skepticalnutrition.com/ Not much there yet, but I do have some essays I'm planning to put up, on raw food/enzymes, raw milk, placentophagia, and MSG. I would love any ideas or comments.

 

[casebro]

Severe indigestion and itchy anus (sorry I had to share that). Either or both will flare up if I eat enriched white flour products. Even a single hamburger on a white bun will effect me. ...

I had exactly those symptoms. At a family BBQ, I though it was the hot dog (casein). Then I thought it was the bun ('milk buns', more casein). The klincher was the Wheat Beer. Two swallows give me some kind of stomache spasm. I thought it was from the cold.

Lots of specialty breads use high-gluten flour, or add gluten. It makes the dough gummier. Lots of prepared foods have it added too, it makes the the sauce goo-ier

I suggest you try a GF (gluten free) diet. Gluten sensitivity is not uncommon. My symptoms all seem to have evaporated with the avoidance of Gluten. 25% of Americans have the gene for it, and it may be activated by a virus.
It's a simple diet, just stay away from wheat, barley, and rye. Difficlut if you live and die by fast foods, easy if you cook from scratch.

My toughest problem was that I brewed my own beer- Malty, Rye beer. Now I'll have to malt my own sorghum to continue that hobby.


ETA: Hmmm, another epiphone here at JREF- I wonder how many of the supposedly "low carb cures" are actually fixing gluten senstivity? Since step one of so many diets are "Stay Away From Bread" ? Atkins, Sugar Busters....