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Could Israel exist without US aid?

JoeTheJuggler

Penultimate Amazing
JoeTheJuggler
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Jun 7, 2006
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This is a question that's bugged me for a while, and I can't find the information necessary to answer it.

Historically, the U.S. gives more aid to Israel than any other nation, and Israel is not a "developing nation". (Ditto the second place country Egypt--so these questions all apply almost equally to Egypt.)

What bothers me is that the median income (last time I found that info) in Israel is higher than mine, but I still pay income tax, a part of which contributes to this aid.

The figure varies from around $3 billion to $5 billion. Most of the aid is to support the military.

Still, my question is about how large the Israel budget is, and could they exist as recognizably the same nation without US aid?

Here's all I could find by way of a report on Israel's budget (see the pdf linked in this summary page), but I couldn't cipher out an actual size of the budget (what we in the U.S. would call the "Federal budget"), but rather a lot of GDP type of information.

This isn't a loaded question, but a genuine appeal for an answer. Just how significant is our aid to Israel? Even though they are obviously politically sovereign, do we actually underwrite this country?
 
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My guess, and it's only a guess: aside from enemies all around... Israel could not exist without tons of aid in money and weaponry from the US.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
What bothers me is that the median income (last time I found that info) in Israel is higher than mine, but I still pay income tax, a part of which contributes to this aid.
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Why should that matter? Their median income should be irrelevant, the relevant factor should be whether or not the benefits are worth it. I'd give aid to Lichtenstein if the benefit was worth it.

Still, my question is about how large the Israel budget is, and could they exist as recognizably the same nation without US aid?
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Sure. They'd likely have to be much more ham-fisted in dealing with their enemies (precision munitions are expensive, dumb bombs are cheap), but I don't see why not. Furthermore, they would probably find themselves a new sponsor. China is always on the lookout for new military technology, and Israel has expertise they could sell. Would they get as much as they're getting now from us? Probably not. Would they get enough assistance to get by? Yes, I imagine they would.
 
Ziggurat said:
Why should that matter? Their median income should be irrelevant, the relevant factor should be whether or not the benefits are worth it. I'd give aid to Lichtenstein if the benefit was worth it.
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Benefit to whom?

Rolfe.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
This is a question that's bugged me for a while, and I can't find the information necessary to answer it.

Historically, the U.S. gives more aid to Israel than any other nation, and Israel is not a "developing nation". (Ditto the second place country Egypt--so these questions all apply almost equally to Egypt.)

What bothers me is that the median income (last time I found that info) in Israel is higher than mine, but I still pay income tax, a part of which contributes to this aid.

The figure varies from around $3 billion to $5 billion. Most of the aid is to support the military.

Still, my question is about how large the Israel budget is, and could they exist as recognizably the same nation without US aid?

Here's all I could find by way of a report on Israel's budget (see the pdf linked in this summary page), but I couldn't cipher out an actual size of the budget (what we in the U.S. would call the "Federal budget"), but rather a lot of GDP type of information.

This isn't a loaded question, but a genuine appeal for an answer. Just how significant is our aid to Israel? Even though they are obviously politically sovereign, do we actually underwrite this country?
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Probably not, but you unfortunatly left vacant in this question the forms of aid to Israel's opponents in the region. The influence that would have on Israel's condition or survival is non-trivial.

For a few decades there, Israel and various opponents played for the US and the USSR rivalry. The eventual peace agreeement Israel/Egypt changed that profoundly.

DR
 
and isnt much of that aid spend on US manufactured stuff? wich still you pay but get it partially back by work.
 
Rolfe said:
Benefit to whom?
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Wrong question. The right question is according to whom are the benefits worth it. The difference matters, as consideration of 3rd world aid demonstrates. And the answer to that is obviously whoever is giving the aid in question.
 
I believe Israel would do just fine without $3 billion a year in US military aid.
 
Ziggurat said:
Wrong question. The right question is according to whom are the benefits worth it. The difference matters, as consideration of 3rd world aid demonstrates. And the answer to that is obviously whoever is giving the aid in question.
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Nice dodge, but you still didn't quantify the benefit.


To the OP: No idea, but leaning toward possibly not.
 
parky76 said:
I believe Israel would do just fine without $3 billion a year in US military aid.
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Amazingly, I get to agree with Parky76. Almost, as I believe that the aid is not $3 billion yet. (It is supposed to grow from 2 to 3$ bn over several years. Can't remember how soon.)

It is always good to look at the numbers. Israel's budget is around 93bn $. So the extra 2 or three billions are a very welcome addition, but not a critical one. (They actually come with buy back conditions which forces Israel to expend most of it in the US. Some on the expense of the local industry.)
 
GreNME said:
Nice dodge, but you still didn't quantify the benefit.
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Why should I? It's irrelevant to my point. I am making no claim about whether or not the benefits are worthwhile. That is a topic on which there is considerable disagreement (which is no surprise since it involves not only speculation but also subjective value judgments), and one I have no interest in pursuing at the moment.
 
Plus, Egypt gets an almost identical amount as Israel gets. It was Carter's way of bribing Israel and Egypt into making peace.

In 2004, Iraq got the most aid with 18.44 billion, Israel was next with 2.62 billion, then Egypt with 1.87 billion, and then Afghanistan with 1.77 billion.
 
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parky76 said:
Plus, Egypt gets an almost identical amount as Israel gets. It was Carter's way of bribing Israel and Egypt into making peace.
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If I try to imagine the logic behind this, the real-politic seem to have been as follows. Egypt had to be bribed to break away from the USSR and become a US ally. But the peace deal had Israel returning a large parcel of territory and thus taking a security risk. So Israel was offered more military aid than Egypt to make the risk taking easier.

Now one may argue whether that deal should have had an expiry date. That is not for me to say. I would say that through the aid the US gain influence on both countries, helping the administrations to stabilize the middle east. (Which they have done to a great extent. The last full scale, multi-country, war was in 1973.)
 
Out of curiosity, does anyone have estimates of Soviet aid to the area? And subsequent Russian aid?
 
Doctor Evil said:
Almost, as I believe that the aid is not $3 billion yet. (It is supposed to grow from 2 to 3$ bn over several years. Can't remember how soon.)
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Not according to the information I've found. (I suppose it depends on different definitions of "U.S. Aid".)

See Table 2 Recent Aid to Israel in this report prepared for Congress by the Library of Congress.

Just the "total" column says:

1949-1996: $68 billion
1997: $3.1 billion
1998: $3.08 billion
1999: $3 billion
2000 $4.1 billion
2001: $2.87 billion
2002 (est.) $2.8 billion

So, over the years, it certainly has been at $3 billion and beyond.

In stark contrast, this site, the Jewish Virtual Library, says,
Israel has received more direct aid from the United States since World War II than any other country, but the amounts for the first half of this period were relatively small. Between 1949 and 1973, the U.S. provided Israel with an average of about $122 million a year, a total of $3.1 billion (and actually more than $1 billion of that was loans for military equipment in 1971-73) . Prior to 1971, Israel received a total of only $277 million in military aid, all in the form of loans as credit sales.
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Frankly, I think the figures from the first source are more credible since I've seen them repeated in more places.

It looks like maybe the second source is not counting military aid? Or are they claiming perhaps that other places are improperly counting loans or credit sales as "aid"?
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
Not according to the information I've found. (I suppose it depends on different definitions of "U.S. Aid".)

See Table 2 Recent Aid to Israel in this report prepared for Congress by the Library of Congress.

Just the "total" column says:

1949-1996: $68 billion
1997: $3.1 billion
1998: $3.08 billion
1999: $3 billion
2000 $4.1 billion
2001: $2.87 billion
2002 (est.) $2.8 billion

So, over the years, it certainly has been at $3 billion and beyond.

In stark contrast, this site, the Jewish Virtual Library, says,

Frankly, I think the figures from the first source are more credible since I've seen them repeated in more places.

It looks like maybe the second source is not counting military aid? Or are they claiming perhaps that other places are improperly counting loans or credit sales as "aid"?
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Both are correct.

Prior to the 1970s, Israel did not receive as much aid. The figures really were that low.
 
Ziggurat said:
Why should that matter? Their median income should be irrelevant, the relevant factor should be whether or not the benefits are worth it.
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What got me thinking in these terms most recently was this thread and the objection to health insurance reform based on claims that it's "socialism" or at least unfair transfer of wealth.

That is, not simply a pragmatic cost/benefit analysis (since we're not allowed to do that wrt to health care, otherwise we'd have to say there should be no consideration of running up debt in the interest of saving lives), but an ideological principle against transfer payments.
 
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TriskettheKid said:
Both are correct.

Prior to the 1970s, Israel did not receive as much aid. The figures really were that low.
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I see.

So the $68 billion in the '48-'96 entry was nearly completely from 1970-1996?

If so, that would mean we were giving over $3 billion per year for that entire 26 year span.
 
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