Wolfman
Chief Solipsistic, Autosycophant
I'm very much enjoying myself in these forums -- for the most part, I've found responses here much more intelligent and reasonable than in most other forums. I've enjoyed a number of my exchanges, both with those who've agreed with my points, and with those who've disagreed.
Some of the comments from others have caused me to do some contemplation on my own beliefs and values. I am considered by some atheists to be an apologist for theists; while some theists have labeled me a closed-minded atheist (I am, in fact, an atheist...but I hope not close-minded). Some people here call me a Communist sympathizer, while others consider me too hard on Communism.
The topics/debates into which I tend to poke my head the most are the "A is better than B" type -- you know, "atheists are better than theists", "women are better than men", "system A is better than system B", etc. If someone says atheists are better than theists, for example, then I tend to argue that this is not true, and thus get labeled as being an atheist sympathizer. If someone says theists are better than atheists, then I tend to argue that this also is not true, and thus get labeled as anti-religious.
In part, this is because of my own personality -- I tend to be a person who dislikes extremes, and believe that the "truth" (whatever that may be) lays somewhere in the middle.
However, I've come over the past few days to consider another aspect. Those who argue for the 'superiority' of atheism tend to do so with some sort of ideal in mind -- they have had no real experience of an "atheist" culture, only of a relatively small circle of atheists. Those who argue for the 'superiority' of matriarchy over patriarchy tend to do so with some sort of ideal in mind -- they have had no real experience of a "matriarchal" culture, and rely on (often biased) historical records, or their own ideas of what it would be like. Those who argue that Communism is the worst evil have rarely had direct experience with it; and those who argue that Communism is a great system (and yes, I've had at least two people in here make that kind of claim) also have rarely had direct experience with it.
This next part of my argument is hard to make without sounding like I'm trying to say I'm 'superior', or that others who haven't had my experience have no right to comment. But the fact is, I've had personal experience living in an essentially atheist culture -- China, in which by far the majority of my friends are atheist, and where atheism is the only belief system (or would you prefer lack belief?) taught in the schools. Yet I find the many atheists I know here no less (and no more) prone to the various weaknesses of mankind than anyone else.
I've had personal experience, also, of a matriarchal culture -- the Mosuo, one of the few surviving matriarchies in the world. I've established a non-profit organization to work with them and help them (see my signature below for more information), and while their culture is certainly quite different from many others, they still suffer the same basic weaknesses, abuses, etc.
I've lived for 14 years in a Communist country, and seen the impact of it first-hand (in fact, have not just seen it, but experienced it first-hand). And as such, I've seen abuses -- but I've also seen benefits.
It is hard to debate with people who base their arguments on some sort of intellectual ideal -- what they "believe" an atheist society would be like, what they "believe" a female-dominated society would be like, etc. And the moment I try, I tend to be accused of 'supporting' or 'sympathizing with' the opposite view.
So I just wanted to clarify, and share my musings on my own motivations and perspectives in these debates. My world view is simple (and forgive me for repeating what I've recently said in another thread, but this seems a more appropriate place for it): that humans are a result of millions of years of evolution that has resulted in programming us with certain instincts, certain desires, etc. These instincts, these desires -- they are shared in common by all of humanity. Whether you are atheist or theist, male or female, black, white, yellow, or green...we all are defined by the forces that have led to the point we have reached today.
Yes, on an individual level, we can sometimes 'rise above' or ignore those impulses. And yes, education can be an influencing factor. But on a large scale, when dealing with societies as a whole, we are going to continue acting in the same ways. We'll always have people seeking (and abusing) power, regardless of who is in charge. We'll always have people seeking to polarize society, to divide us into "us" vs. "them", regardless of what we believe in.
Over the historical short term (periods of one hundred years or less), we will see variations in this; but over the long term, the cycle just repeats itself over and over and over again.
And that is the core of my arguments here -- yes, I have strong personal beliefs. But while I believe those beliefs are "true", I don't believe they are therefore implicitly superior (on a moral level) to any other system of belief. I can name theists who've done terrible things (think Inquisition), and I can name theists who've done amazing things (think Martin Luther King). I can name men who've done terrible things (think Hitler), and I can name men who've done amazing things (think Gandhi). I can name women who've done terrible things (Chinese Empress Ci Xi), and I can name women who've done wonderful things (Mother Theresa). I can name Communists who've done terrible things (Stalin), and I can name Communists who've done wonderful things (Dr. Norman Bethune). I can name people in democratic nations who've done terrible things (think American slavery), and I can name people in democratic nations who've done wonderful things (think of the American Bill of Rights).
I don't personally believe that Martin Luther King's beliefs were true at all; but I consider him to be an incredible example of human courage, and who represents many of the core ideals that I myself hold most important.
I really doubt that any belief system or society will get very far until it is able to get past this human inclination to divide us into 'us' vs. 'them', and rather to see everyone just as 'us' -- subject to the same potential weaknesses, the same potential abuses...and the same potential greatness.
Some of the comments from others have caused me to do some contemplation on my own beliefs and values. I am considered by some atheists to be an apologist for theists; while some theists have labeled me a closed-minded atheist (I am, in fact, an atheist...but I hope not close-minded). Some people here call me a Communist sympathizer, while others consider me too hard on Communism.
The topics/debates into which I tend to poke my head the most are the "A is better than B" type -- you know, "atheists are better than theists", "women are better than men", "system A is better than system B", etc. If someone says atheists are better than theists, for example, then I tend to argue that this is not true, and thus get labeled as being an atheist sympathizer. If someone says theists are better than atheists, then I tend to argue that this also is not true, and thus get labeled as anti-religious.
In part, this is because of my own personality -- I tend to be a person who dislikes extremes, and believe that the "truth" (whatever that may be) lays somewhere in the middle.
However, I've come over the past few days to consider another aspect. Those who argue for the 'superiority' of atheism tend to do so with some sort of ideal in mind -- they have had no real experience of an "atheist" culture, only of a relatively small circle of atheists. Those who argue for the 'superiority' of matriarchy over patriarchy tend to do so with some sort of ideal in mind -- they have had no real experience of a "matriarchal" culture, and rely on (often biased) historical records, or their own ideas of what it would be like. Those who argue that Communism is the worst evil have rarely had direct experience with it; and those who argue that Communism is a great system (and yes, I've had at least two people in here make that kind of claim) also have rarely had direct experience with it.
This next part of my argument is hard to make without sounding like I'm trying to say I'm 'superior', or that others who haven't had my experience have no right to comment. But the fact is, I've had personal experience living in an essentially atheist culture -- China, in which by far the majority of my friends are atheist, and where atheism is the only belief system (or would you prefer lack belief?) taught in the schools. Yet I find the many atheists I know here no less (and no more) prone to the various weaknesses of mankind than anyone else.
I've had personal experience, also, of a matriarchal culture -- the Mosuo, one of the few surviving matriarchies in the world. I've established a non-profit organization to work with them and help them (see my signature below for more information), and while their culture is certainly quite different from many others, they still suffer the same basic weaknesses, abuses, etc.
I've lived for 14 years in a Communist country, and seen the impact of it first-hand (in fact, have not just seen it, but experienced it first-hand). And as such, I've seen abuses -- but I've also seen benefits.
It is hard to debate with people who base their arguments on some sort of intellectual ideal -- what they "believe" an atheist society would be like, what they "believe" a female-dominated society would be like, etc. And the moment I try, I tend to be accused of 'supporting' or 'sympathizing with' the opposite view.
So I just wanted to clarify, and share my musings on my own motivations and perspectives in these debates. My world view is simple (and forgive me for repeating what I've recently said in another thread, but this seems a more appropriate place for it): that humans are a result of millions of years of evolution that has resulted in programming us with certain instincts, certain desires, etc. These instincts, these desires -- they are shared in common by all of humanity. Whether you are atheist or theist, male or female, black, white, yellow, or green...we all are defined by the forces that have led to the point we have reached today.
Yes, on an individual level, we can sometimes 'rise above' or ignore those impulses. And yes, education can be an influencing factor. But on a large scale, when dealing with societies as a whole, we are going to continue acting in the same ways. We'll always have people seeking (and abusing) power, regardless of who is in charge. We'll always have people seeking to polarize society, to divide us into "us" vs. "them", regardless of what we believe in.
Over the historical short term (periods of one hundred years or less), we will see variations in this; but over the long term, the cycle just repeats itself over and over and over again.
And that is the core of my arguments here -- yes, I have strong personal beliefs. But while I believe those beliefs are "true", I don't believe they are therefore implicitly superior (on a moral level) to any other system of belief. I can name theists who've done terrible things (think Inquisition), and I can name theists who've done amazing things (think Martin Luther King). I can name men who've done terrible things (think Hitler), and I can name men who've done amazing things (think Gandhi). I can name women who've done terrible things (Chinese Empress Ci Xi), and I can name women who've done wonderful things (Mother Theresa). I can name Communists who've done terrible things (Stalin), and I can name Communists who've done wonderful things (Dr. Norman Bethune). I can name people in democratic nations who've done terrible things (think American slavery), and I can name people in democratic nations who've done wonderful things (think of the American Bill of Rights).
I don't personally believe that Martin Luther King's beliefs were true at all; but I consider him to be an incredible example of human courage, and who represents many of the core ideals that I myself hold most important.
I really doubt that any belief system or society will get very far until it is able to get past this human inclination to divide us into 'us' vs. 'them', and rather to see everyone just as 'us' -- subject to the same potential weaknesses, the same potential abuses...and the same potential greatness.
