Condemning Islamic Culture

[CBL4]

In some other threads, there has been talk about some remarks allegedly condemning Islam and/or Arabs. First of all, I do not condemn all Muslims or the religion itself. I do, however, condemn Arab and Islamic cultures and countries.

This may seem like a bigoted statement but it is not. I condemn all countries that do not provide freedom for their citizens. This means that I condemn every Arab country and virtually all Islamic majority countries.

For definitions of Free, Partly Free and Not Free, I used the Freedom House Organization 2003 report. http://www.freedomhouse.org/pdf_docs/research/freeworld/2003/map2003.pdf

If no Arab countries are free, then there is something wrong with Arab culture. If only two out of 42 Islamic countries are free (guess which ones), then there is something wrong with the role that Islam plays in culture. 58 percent of non-Islamic countries are free but less than 5% of Islamic countries are free.

For another example, there were 15 Soviet Republic of which 6 had Islam as the largest religion – Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Turkmenistan. All of these are Not Free except Azerbaijan which is Partly Free. Of the other 9 republics 3 are Free (Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia), 5 are Partly Free and only Belarus is Not Free.

In other words, Islam and freedom appear to be antithetical. We should all condemn the culture(s) that produce tyranny.

Notes on statistics -
1) According to Freedom House 89 out of 192 countries are free. Eliminating the 42 Islamic majority countries, that means 87 out of the 150 non-Islamic countries are free.

2) According to this link
http://www.alleanzacattolica.org/acs/acs_english/acs_index.htm
there are 42 majority Islamic countries.

CBL

 

[Richard G]

There is no other culture in the world that is as backwards, oppresive, superstitious, ignorant, and hatefull.

 

[TragicMonkey]

There is no other culture in the world that is as backwards, oppresive, superstitious, ignorant, and hatefull.

Wouldn't it be funny if they said the same thing about us?

 

[Nasarius]

We're all very proud of you and your BOLD COURAGEOUS STAND FOR FREEDOM (TM). No really. It takes a lot of balls to condemn entire cultures because their governments suck. Especially if you bother to remember European history. Or you can just continue to look at tiny slices of history and make broad judgments (which, conveniently, reaffirm your political views).

Oh oh, can we condemn Chinese culture too? I mean, obviously they're a bunch of worthless commie bastards. Better dead than red, y'know? While we're at it, don't forget Germany and Russia. Bunch of drunk Nazicommies. And the less said about the Aussies, the better.

This is fun!

 

[Richard G]

It takes a lot of balls to condemn entire cultures because their governments suck.

Who said anything about their goverments?

 

[Tony]

We're all very proud of you and your BOLD COURAGEOUS STAND FOR FREEDOM (TM). No really. It takes a lot of balls to condemn entire cultures because their governments suck. Especially if you bother to remember European history. Or you can just continue to look at tiny slices of history and make broad judgments (which, conveniently, reaffirm your political views).

Oh oh, can we condemn Chinese culture too? I mean, obviously they're a bunch of worthless commie bastards. Better dead than red, y'know? While we're at it, don't forget Germany and Russia. Bunch of drunk Nazicommies. And the less said about the Aussies, the better.

This is fun!

What's that on your avatar Mr. Hypocrite?

 

[Tony]

Wouldn't it be funny if they said the same thing about us?

People can say all kinds of things, that doesn't make them true.

 

[TragicMonkey]

People can say all kinds of things, that doesn't make them true.

Yes....a truism I'd apply to any sweeping condemnation of another culture.

 

[Tony]

Yes....a truism I'd apply to any sweeping condemnation of another culture.

So what good qualities are found in Nazi culture?

 

[TragicMonkey]

So what good qualities are found in Nazi culture?

I don't see how refusing to join the prosecution over the whole of Arab culture automatically briefs me for the defense of Nazism.

 

[Tony]

I don't see how refusing to join the prosecution over the whole of Arab culture automatically briefs me for the defense of Nazism.

You seem to imply that it's wrong to comdemn a culture, did I misread?

 

[TragicMonkey]

You seem to imply that it's wrong to comdemn a culture, did I misread?

Oh, yes, that's exactly what I meant, that you can define any group as a "culture" and render it immune to criticism. Sheesh. We're talking about a race here, not a political faction.

 

[Tony]

First of all, I do not condemn all Muslims or the religion itself.

I condemn the religion. And while I'm at it, let me also condemn christianity and fundamentalism in general.

 

[Tony]

We're talking about a race here, not a political faction.

No we're not, we're talking about a religious/political ideology.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Anyway, all I said was I agreed with your statement that "People can say all kinds of things, that doesn't make them true" and thought it could apply to this thread.

 

[Tony]

Anyway, all I said was I agreed with your statement that "People can say all kinds of things, that doesn't make them true" and thought it could apply to this thread.

Could it?

Islam is demonstrably worthy of condemnation.

What islamic country protects civil rights?

Minority rights?

Women's rights?

Freedom of speech?

Freedom of thought?

Freedom of religion?

Human rights?


Until such ideals become the mainstream in islamic thought, no amount of moral equivocation will erase the fact that the muslim world is the backwards sh!thole it is.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I don't see where I claimed the opposite, either. Just that you're saying things about "all Islamic countries" doesn't make it true. I suspect if someone took the time to study the countries in question they would find that all of them are not the same, and that they are not all as dreadful as commonly perceived by the West.

But frankly I'm not that interested, because "X are bad" assertions don't seem terribly constructive. So what? Even if they are that bad, pointing it out isn't going to make them any better.

 

[evildave]

Could it?

Islam is demonstrably worthy of condemnation.

What islamic country protects civil rights?

Until such ideals become the mainstream in islamic thought, no amount of moral equivocation will erase the fact that the muslim world is the backwards sh!thole it is.

And what of the Islamic people who were raised in the United States? Do you believe that they don't?

In various places, and various times, all of these things have been described by Christians as 'bad'. Women's rights, especially.

Minority rights?
Christians don't have a very good history with 'minority rights'. Pogroms in Europe and the Americas slaughtered a lot of people in the name of their Jesus.

Women's rights?
Women's suffrage is a relatively new issue intruduced in the early 20th century. Christians resisted it for very Christian reasons. Women's rights grew from there. Tell me how mighty women are in Latin America, where Christianity is supreme.

Freedom of speech?
Once again, as many primarily Christian run nations have problems with freedom of speech.

Freedom of thought?
You can think anything, anywhere you like. Just don't say it. You can walk right up to anyone, smile and think they're a buttheat, and it's fine. People in Islamic countries think a lot of things.

Freedom of religion?
Once again, look no further than Latin America for your answer to this. Then look to European history. It's certainly not Christianity that made people mellow out and put up with non-Christians.

Human rights?
What? Like detaining people indefinitely, in some cases secretly, putting bags on their heads leaving them naked and wet on a concrete floor and threatening them with dogs? What's that the pot said, Mr. Kettle?

 

[CBL4]

It takes a lot of balls to condemn entire cultures because their governments suck.

If we were talking one or two countries, you would have argument. But we are talking 42 countries. 40 of them abuse their citizen. 4.7% vs. 57% is what is called statistically significant.

I have presented evidence with links. If I am wrong, please come up with a counter explanation instead of slurs. Oil might play a factor but many (most?) of the Islamic countries are without significant oil. I brought up the Soviet Republics to show that it cannot only be a a result of historical interference.

Especially if you bother to remember European history. Or you can just continue to look at tiny slices of history and make broad judgments (which, conveniently, reaffirm your political views)

I am only talking about the present. Comparing 2003 to 1972 (first year of this survey) is informative. Freedom in the world has grown dramatically. In 1972, 43 out of 150 countries (29%) were free. The percent has doubled in 31 years. Freedom is growing in the world. The Islamic world is sadly missing out. Even Africa now has 8 Free countries. Did you look at the map in my link? There is a row of countries from Algeria to Khazakstan that is conspicuous in its almost total lack of freedom. Not coincidentally, this corresponds to all of the Arab world and most of the Islamic world.

Oh oh, can we condemn Chinese culture too?

As far as Chinese countries, 50% are Free and 50% are Not Free. This is about what you would expect but with a sample size of 2, it is not meaningful.

CBL

 

[Tony]

And what of the Islamic people who were raised in the United States? Do you believe that they don't?

In various places, and various times, all of these things have been described by Christians as 'bad'. Women's rights, especially.

Minority rights?
Christians don't have a very good history with 'minority rights'. Pogroms in Europe and the Americas slaughtered a lot of people in the name of their Jesus.

Women's rights?
Women's suffrage is a relatively new issue intruduced in the early 20th century. Christians resisted it for very Christian reasons. Women's rights grew from there. Tell me how mighty women are in Latin America, where Christianity is supreme.

Freedom of speech?
Once again, as many primarily Christian run nations have problems with freedom of speech.

Freedom of thought?
You can think anything, anywhere you like. Just don't say it. You can walk right up to anyone, smile and think they're a buttheat, and it's fine. People in Islamic countries think a lot of things.

Freedom of religion?
Once again, look no further than Latin America for your answer to this. Then look to European history. It's certainly not Christianity that made people mellow out and put up with non-Christians.

I notice that in your rabid apologies you missed the part where I also condemned christianity.

Human rights?
What? Like detaining people indefinitely, in some cases secretly, putting bags on their heads leaving them naked and wet on a concrete floor and threatening them with dogs? What's that the pot said, Mr. Kettle?

LOL

You're so predictable. Let me put it this way, if the islamic countries merely did that (which was some of our worse). It would be a vast improvment on their current status quo.