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Circumcision

pdw709

Student
P
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
48
After finally getting hold of the complete 4 seasons of Penn & Teller Bullsh*t (not so easy in UK has its not offically released over here) I've been steadily wading my way through.

Imagine my surprise when I came to the Circumcision episode - I thought I already new all about this ghastly procedure. I had always assumed that it was confined entirely to the Jewish community but my jaw litterally hit the flaw when I realised that it's far more common infact it appears to almost be the norm over in the US. To watch those "so called" doctors trying to justify acts of barbarism, and to do so in a flipant and nonchalent manner really made my blood boil.

The worst was the assumption that its a "cosmetic procedure" on par with breast enlargement - try telling that to a new born baby. Surely any procedure could be done when the child is older with his consent.

Am I correct in thinking that the vast majority of men are indeed circumcised?

Phil
 
pdw709 said:
... but my jaw litterally hit the flaw ...
Click to expand...

Which 'jaw' would that be, and would that be this 'flaw'? ;)

No, seriously, I believe the procedure is sometimes undertaken for medical reasons, although that might just be an excuse. As a 'matter-of-course' procedure I, too, agree that it's barbaric. Forget the 'hygeine' reasons too. If men are too lazy to wash underneath their foreskin then it's education and shower gel that's needed, not the surgeon's knife.

What I find even more barbaric is female circumcision. Both should be outlawed, especially in civilised society where the mechanisms exist to make it so.
 
I refer you to this thread.

Summary:

Circumcision might be useful if you (or your child is) planning on having unprotected sex in the third world, otherwise it's a cultural thing, that some believe should be tolerated because it does not damage the function of a man's penis enough to warrant intervention.

ETA: Southwind17, medically indicated circumcision is rare, especially for infants.
 
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As a man who's not circumsized, I ask myself, "How much money would you have to pay me to undergo that procedure?" $100,000? No freakin' way. Maybe a million dollars, but only because I am a man of modest means. If I actually had a few million dollars in the bank, there's no way I'd do it for a million.

With that in mind, I think to force that upon a defenseless child against his will is positively criminal.
 
While we laugh at tribes in some jungle who poke sticks in their lips or stretch their necks, are we really any different? Cutting off parts from newborn males seems rather primitive.
 
pdw709 said:
After finally getting hold of the complete 4 seasons of Penn & Teller Bullsh*t (not so easy in UK has its not offically released over here) I've been steadily wading my way through.

Imagine my surprise when I came to the Circumcision episode - I thought I already new all about this ghastly procedure. I had always assumed that it was confined entirely to the Jewish community but my jaw litterally hit the flaw when I realised that it's far more common infact it appears to almost be the norm over in the US. To watch those "so called" doctors trying to justify acts of barbarism, and to do so in a flipant and nonchalent manner really made my blood boil.

The worst was the assumption that its a "cosmetic procedure" on par with breast enlargement - try telling that to a new born baby. Surely any procedure could be done when the child is older with his consent.

Am I correct in thinking that the vast majority of men are indeed circumcised?

Phil
Click to expand...

I was also surprised to discover this. The numbers are gradually decreasing, particularly in states like California. We've had several long discussions about this - occasionally civil (:)). Don't assume that any of what P and T presented is representative, though.

Linda
 
Unalienable said:
As a man who's not circumsized, I ask myself, "How much money would you have to pay me to undergo that procedure?" $100,000? No freakin' way. Maybe a million dollars, but only because I am a man of modest means. If I actually had a few million dollars in the bank, there's no way I'd do it for a million.
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They only had to pay African men 36 Euros to undergo the procedure.

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020298

Linda
 
fls said:
They only had to pay African men 36 Euros to undergo the procedure.

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020298

Linda
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Self-selecting group. Those that would want more payment or benefit from the procedure before being prepared to be circumcised would not be in a randomized trial.

ETA: How many condoms would 36 Euro buy in Africa?

ETA2: http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/323/7305/139?view=full&pmid=11463681

How much would it cost to close the 1.9 billion condom gap for sub-Saharan Africa? At the international price of $0.025 per condom, the annual cost would be only $47.5m (£34m). However, as with drugs to treat HIV, the commodity costs are only the beginning. Service delivery costs (including promotion) are a greater challenge. Nevertheless, effective models for delivery are known and much infrastructure is in place or can be scaled up through existing successful mechanisms such as condom social marketing and clinics.2

But health programming of any sort requires concerted effort and resources. Finding ways to promote condom use and other prevention among high transmitting people is particularly important. Experience in Thailand shows such an approach can greatly reduce sexually transmitted infection and HIV.3

Relative to the enormity of the HIV/AIDS pandemic in Africa, providing condoms is cheap and cost effective. All aspects of HIV control are important, but a first priority must be prevention.
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Quite a few, it would seem.
 
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fls said:
They only had to pay African men 36 Euros to undergo the procedure.

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020298

Linda
Click to expand...


As indigenous circumcisions, in Southern Africa at least, are done by witchdoctors (not pc I'm sure but not sure what they are called these days), with no anaesthetic, in unsanitary conditions and with no actual consent (they boys do consent but if they do not they will never be men), Eur 36 is seems quite a lot by comparison.
These are generally carried out on special circumcision camps lasting a weeks or so and every year there are numerous reports of infections, mutilations, and even deaths.

And as for female circumcision, the barbarity involved should be criminal.
 
lanienus said:
While we laugh at tribes in some jungle who poke sticks in their lips or stretch their necks, are we really any different? Cutting off parts from newborn males seems rather primitive.
Click to expand...

That's exactly the point. The pro-circumcision people are, as you suggest, 'rather primitive', hence the desire to end the practice in so-called civilized society.

p.s. That said, I'd probably undergo it for $1 million, but then I'd happily lose a little toe for that too! I don't suppose an application to the MDC would be entertained, would it!
 
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Best advice I ever heard about having newborn boys circumcised was, "Hell no...let 'em grow up and wear it off!":D
 
Southwind17 said:
That's exactly the point. The pro-circumcision people are, as you suggest, 'rather primitive', hence the desire to end the practice in so-called civilized society.

p.s. That said, I'd probably undergo it for $1 million, but then I'd happily lose a little toe for that too! I don't suppose an application to the MDC would be entertained, would it!
Click to expand...

You do realize, don't you, that Linda is never going to talk to you again for making such a terrible slur against so many Jewish, Muslim and American parents?

:D
 
fls said:
They only had to pay African men 36 Euros to undergo the procedure.

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020298

Linda
Click to expand...

I have heard of this study, they found that there was a benefit in circumcising men for the prevention of HIV transmission.

I will have to find the article(s), but later because I have to get to bed (Uni today), but I remember finding one that said that there was a danger of an increased chance of catching HIV for however long it takes for the skin to heal and another study that found that some of the circumcised men thought that they became 'invincible' to HIV and were more likely to put themselves into riskier situations because of this idea.

I did find this however.

ETA:And this
 
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Thanks for the link to the previous discssion - appologies for not doing a forum search and finding it myslef.

Its one hell of a long thread, and so i'm only 1 third of the way through it!

Cheers
 
Oh, good. Another circumcision thread. Perhaps we should cut this one off at an early age.
 
Southwind17 said:
p.s. That said, I'd probably undergo it for $1 million, but then I'd happily lose a little toe for that too! I don't suppose an application to the MDC would be entertained, would it!
Click to expand...

Depends upon what sort of growth there was, after.

Linda
 
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