christianity and depression

[andyandy]

This is something that occurred to me a while back, i'd be interested in opinions....

When humans suffer a traumatic event there is generally an accepted coping mechanism cycle....

the Kübler-Ross Grief Cycle, lists the stages as below. Most are well understood, but for "bargaining" and "testing" i've added a brief description.
More details at http://changingminds.org/disciplines/change_management/kubler_ross/bargaining_stage.htm

1) Shock
2) Denial
3) Anger
4) Bargaining (seeking ways to avoid having the bad thing happen. Bargaining is thus a vain expression of hope that the bad news is reversible. Bargaining in illness includes seeking alternative therapies and experimental drugs.)
5) Depression
Testing (Even in the pit of depressive despair, reality eventually starts to bite and the person realizes that they cannot stay in that deep, dark hole forever. They thus start looking for realistic things that they can do. These may be taken on as 'experiments' to see if doing these things help the situation in any way)
6) Acceptance.

Now, it strikes me that Christianity (and other monotheistic religions) through their teachings, prolong both the denial and the bargaining stages of grief - and as such mean that people take longer to reach (6) acceptance. An added problem is that through offering false hope in stages (2) and (4), the depression would seem to be worsened (ie. you are left with the impression of being forsaken by your God, you turn the problem in on yourself, asking what you did wrong, etc. etc)

whereas, Buddhism takes you straight to (6) - at least theoretically, therefore minimizing time spent in phases (1) to (5).....

It seems (to me) to be fairly conclusive proof of the benefit of Buddhist teachings relative to other monotheistic approaches to grief - and something which is corroborated by scientific studies with regards to how humans cope with trauma....
any comments?

 

[slingblade]

Buddha's not a god, right? I honestly don't know that much about Buddhism. But he's a wise person who reached nirvana, correct?

Because if Buddha's not a god, but simply a light on the path to enlightenment, then he seems to serve about the same purpose as no god at all: listen to the wisdom and foolishness around you, including Siddhartha's, choose what seems good to you, and live that way.

Depression comes from believing there is supernatural help for your problems, but never getting that help, no matter what you do, how hard you try, or how obedient and wonderful you are.

 

[andyandy]

Buddha's not a god, right? I honestly don't know that much about Buddhism. But he's a wise person who reached nirvana, correct?

Because if Buddha's not a god, but simply a light on the path to enlightenment, then he seems to serve about the same purpose as no god at all: listen to the wisdom and foolishness around you, including Siddhartha's, choose what seems good to you, and live that way.

It's all quite open to interpretation, but I would regard Buddhism as philosophy rather than religion....

For me Buddhism revolves around suffering - which seems somewhat morose, especially when compared to, say Christianity, which revolves around salvation.....but it's not really - it's a way of accepting suffering as part of life. And more than that, it's an acknowledgment that suffering is caused by desire - whether that's a desire to not be ill, a desire that a loved one doesn't die or a desire for "things to be different..."

Basically, it's about finding happiness with what you have, not looking for it.....

if you don't know much about Buddhism, I'd encourage you to look into it (no hard sales pitch - it's something that's helped me that's all )

the basic tenets are as follows;

Four Noble Truths

1. Suffering exists
2. Suffering arises from attachment to desires
3. Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases
4. Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the Eightfold Path

Noble Eightfold Path

Wisdom Right View
Right Thought
Morality Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood
Meditation Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Contemplation

there's more details on teachings, history etc here.

and as such Buddhist philosophy seems to me to offer the best way of coping with grief (despite being formed many centuries before any psychological studies on the matter)

whereas Christianity/Islam/Judaism seem positively detrimental to dealing with depression.....

 

[ceo_esq]

It seems (to me) to be fairly conclusive proof of the benefit of Buddhist teachings relative to other monotheistic approaches to grief - and something which is corroborated by scientific studies with regards to how humans cope with trauma....
any comments?

Well, I'm not sure how many studies have been done on how Buddhism affects the process of dealing with grief, but a great number of studies* suggest that religion is positively linked to good mental health (including, among other things, as measured by depression and such). As Christianity was the major religion involved in most such studies, I think it is reasonably safe to conclude that Christianity correlates in a general way with less depression and better trauma-coping skills. How Christianity compares to Buddhism in this regard, however, is beyond my knowledge.


*Sources:

• Charles H. Hackney et al., "Religiosity and Mental Health: A Meta-Analysis of Recent Studies", Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion 42:1 (2003)
• Everett L. Worthington et al., "Empirical Research on Religion and Psychotherapeutic Processes and Outcomes: A 10-Year Review and Research Prospectus", Psychological Bulletin 119:3 (1996)

 

[andyandy]

Well, I'm not sure how many studies have been done on how Buddhism affects the process of dealing with grief, but a great number of studies* suggest that religion is positively linked to good mental health (including, among other things, as measured by depression and such). As Christianity was the major religion involved in most such studies, I think it is reasonably safe to conclude that Christianity correlates in a general way with less depression and better trauma-coping skills. How Christianity compares to Buddhism in this regard, however, is beyond my knowledge.


*Sources:

• Charles H. Hackney et al., "Religiosity and Mental Health: A Meta-Analysis of Recent Studies", Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion 42:1 (2003)
• Everett L. Worthington et al., "Empirical Research on Religion and Psychotherapeutic Processes and Outcomes: A 10-Year Review and Research Prospectus", Psychological Bulletin 119:3 (1996)

interesting, it seems somewhat counter-intuitive to me......do you any links to the studies?
the term "good mental health" is in itself rather vague....i would postulate that perhaps monotheistic religion is generally good for good mental wellbeing until the moment it's needed most....ie major grief....at which point I fail to see how it promotes a positive way of dealing with grief. i guess in the long term, the comfort blanket of "heaven" may make, say, death easier for some to deal with - but that would be compared with atheism. but that process of acceptance would seem to require a much greater length of time than in buddhism....

 

[andyandy]

ok this is one source.....

Many people expect religion to bring them happiness. Does this actually seem to be the case? Are religious people happier than nonreligious people? And if so, why might this be?

Researchers have been intrigued by such questions. Most studies have simply asked people how happy they are, although studies also may use scales that try to measure happiness more subtly than that. In general, researchers who have a large sample of people in their study tend to limit their measurement of happiness to just one or two questions, and researchers who have fewer numbers of people use several items or scales to measure happiness.


What do they find? In a nutshell, they find that people who are involved in religion also report greater levels of happiness than do those who are not religious. For example, one study involved over 160,000 people in Europe. Among weekly churchgoers, 85% reported being "very satisfied" with life, but this number reduced to 77% among those who never went to church (Inglehart, 1990). This kind of pattern is typical -- religious involvement is associated with modest increases in happiness.

1. Social Support. Religious involvement is a way of gaining social support. People in general are happier when they are around others who are supportive. Religious groups tend to offer this. This explanation is supported by the fact that the overall pattern of religious people being happier is more pronounced among people who are single, elderly, or in poor health. Related to this is the idea that religion helps people feel closer to God, who might also be viewed as personally supportive.


2. Firm Beliefs. Happiness and life satisfaction increase when we have a sense of where we are going and what is important in life. Of course, many people find this in religion. This might also be related to the rise of 'strict' or conservative churches, which offer more certitude than do more liberal churches.


3. Religion Itself. Religious experiences can be very positive. They offer a person a feeling of being in contact with God (also known as "transcendence") and contact with others. These are usually positive things and, of course, if someone is more involved in positive things, they will tend to feel happier than someone who is less-involved in those things.

http://www.psychwww.com/psyrelig/happy.htm

but, they're dealing more with rather broad concepts of "happiness" rather than periods of grief....

i'd concede that some secondary factors in religion (like a supportive social network) may in some cases make grief easier to deal with than if one was going through things alone, but this "support" could also prolong stages (2) and (4).....

 

[stamenflicker]

any comments?

The notion that Buddhism skips straight to acceptance seems unhealthy if you ask me. The thing I dislike most about Buddhist philosophy is the denial of suffering. It's pure escapism.

Also, with regards to Christianity, try convincing one of us that our hope is false and you'll see the benefit. I have a good atheist friend who once said to me at a funeral, "It's times like these that make me appreciate your world view."

 

[Ryokan]

The thing I dislike most about Buddhist philosophy is the denial of suffering. It's pure escapism.

Denial of suffering? You obviously don't know much about Buddhism.

Buddhism acknowledges suffering, it's the first of the Four Noble Truths. Everything in Buddhism relies in this, there is suffering.

The trick is to learn to cope with that suffering.

 

[andyandy]

The notion that Buddhism skips straight to acceptance seems unhealthy if you ask me. The thing I dislike most about Buddhist philosophy is the denial of suffering. It's pure escapism.

it's not denial of suffering, but acceptance of suffering....why is that escapism? It seems more like realism to me......

if you're talking about how Buddhism proposes to offer a way to end suffering through ending desire...that's not denial either - i think perhaps you misunderstand....
one's life is relative - and of course, say, for someone living with chronic physical pain, Buddhism doesn't make any pretense as to being able to say "Buddhism can stop your pain"......rather, through acceptance of that condition, Buddhism allows you to achieve an escape from suffering that would be in addition to your medical condition.....

It correlates rather nicely with the concept of tit-for-tat game theory...in the case of the iterated prisoner dilemma....
insofar as one should not judge their condition relative to others, but only with regards to themselves.....

Also, with regards to Christianity, try convincing one of us that our hope is false and you'll see the benefit. I have a good atheist friend who once said to me at a funeral, "It's times like these that make me appreciate your world view."

sorry, you'll have to clarify what you mean by that....

 

[MLynn]

1) Shock
2) Denial
3) Anger
4) Bargaining (seeking ways to avoid having the bad thing happen. Bargaining is thus a vain expression of hope that the bad news is reversible. Bargaining in illness includes seeking alternative therapies and experimental drugs.)
5) Depression
Testing (Even in the pit of depressive despair, reality eventually starts to bite and the person realizes that they cannot stay in that deep, dark hole forever. They thus start looking for realistic things that they can do. These may be taken on as 'experiments' to see if doing these things help the situation in any way)
6) Acceptance.

Now, it strikes me that Christianity (and other monotheistic religions) through their teachings, prolong both the denial and the bargaining stages of grief - and as such mean that people take longer to reach (6) acceptance. An added problem is that through offering false hope in stages (2) and (4), the depression would seem to be worsened (ie. you are left with the impression of being forsaken by your God, you turn the problem in on yourself, asking what you did wrong, etc. etc)

Facing the "grim reaper" and dealing with grief is very personal - for anybody of any faith. In fact, I think Christians feel like they are supposed to think it's God's will when someone dies and they try and circumvent the first 5 steps. I've noticed that some people are able to go through a grieving process right after a death, and some "block it out" and then hit a brick wall. Everyone is different.

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

...to quote George Bernard Shaw: "The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one..." might go a long way to explain why believers may report to be happier than atheists. Ignorance and escapism can both convey a state of bliss...

 

[a_unique_person]

Buddha's not a god, right? I honestly don't know that much about Buddhism. But he's a wise person who reached nirvana, correct?

Because if Buddha's not a god, but simply a light on the path to enlightenment, then he seems to serve about the same purpose as no god at all: listen to the wisdom and foolishness around you, including Siddhartha's, choose what seems good to you, and live that way.

Depression comes from believing there is supernatural help for your problems, but never getting that help, no matter what you do, how hard you try, or how obedient and wonderful you are.

As far as I know he's not, but over in Thailand, people treat him just like a god. They pray to him, make offerings, build temples, hold ceremonies.

 

[bruto]

...to quote George Bernard Shaw: "The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one..." might go a long way to explain why believers may report to be happier than atheists. Ignorance and escapism can both convey a state of bliss...

While that may be true in its fashion, and has a definitely useful edge if you're speaking of intellect, overall spiritual well being and quality of life, if the subject is specifically depression, religion could be seen as a drug with relatively benign side effects (depending of course on the religion). Of course that only works if the drug actually alleviates the problem rather than simply masking it or deferring it, and that can be argued. But if something is unbearable, escapism is not necessarily the worst response.

 

[stamenflicker]

Ignorance and escapism can both convey a state of bliss...

Ignorance is relative here, as is escapism. To a believer they are neither. So who really is "worse to wear" in a situation of grief?

 

[stamenflicker]

it's not denial of suffering, but acceptance of suffering....why is that escapism? It seems more like realism to me......

Perhaps for the purile Buddhist it is realism, but then again that would be living in a pretty hopeless ideology. I'll pass.

if you're talking about how Buddhism proposes to offer a way to end suffering through ending desire...that's not denial either - i think perhaps you misunderstand....

Well, thats no real answer either if you ask me. Nothing like traveling through life suspending your feelings for things.

sorry, you'll have to clarify what you mean by that....

I mean that it is pretty empty to tell a person that really has hope that his hope is futile. You're killing the patient to remove the disease. Hardly helpful in my opinion.

 

[andyandy]

Perhaps for the purile Buddhist it is realism, but then again that would be living in a pretty hopeless ideology. I'll pass.

hmm....well we could get into a debate over "hopeless ideology".....but i wanted to keep the OP focused on depression (a cheery topic )....

I mean that it is pretty empty to tell a person that really has hope that his hope is futile. You're killing the patient to remove the disease. Hardly helpful in my opinion.

You do like to twist words don't you?! I'm not advocating any sort of wilfull conversion program from Christianity to Buddhism - or any attempts to subvert an individual's beliefs.....i'm merely pointing out that the monothestic religions seem to offer coping mechanisms which could be seen as detrimental to the Kübler-Ross Grief Cycle - certainly when compared to Buddhism...

I do believe that a lot of monothestic hope is based on false promises -
"if you pray for someone, God can save them...."
"If you're a good christian, God will look after you"
etc. etc. These sort of beliefs do offer hope - but it is a false hope - and will let you down at the moment you need it most - ie. moments of grief where you have to contend with being let down by god as well....

I suppose a christian would disagree with the assertion that it's false hope, and perhaps would argue that "god really does answer your prayers"....but how to explain when your prayers aren't answered? Didn't you pray hard enough? Weren't you a good enough christian? It brings personal responsibility onto external events - which is detrimental to coping with depression.....

 

[Walter Wayne]

...

Basically, it's about finding happiness with what you have, not looking for it.....

...

A part of christian teaching is about being happy with what you have. The same teachings that inspire guilt in some (what sin did a commit to deserve this) inspires acceptance in others (all part of God's plan).

Walt

 

[Kopji]

This is something that occurred to me a while back, i'd be interested in opinions....

...It seems (to me) to be fairly conclusive proof of the benefit of Buddhist teachings relative to other monotheistic approaches to grief - and something which is corroborated by scientific studies with regards to how humans cope with trauma.... any comments?

Humm, random thoughts...

I think that any religion is a considerable amount of trouble and effort to go to if it is not true. We do not really measure the truth of religion by how much it helps us. That seems more like a question around the value of religion.

'Truth' seems absolute, and 'value' seems subjective. If religion is seen as offering value - sort of like an ecosystem, I am ok with that. If religion offers objective truth - then how can any impact on grief cycles possibly matter?

If there were a drug we could take that eliminated grief and allowed us to go quickly from step 1 to step 6 - would that be a good thing? Or is our journey through grief somehow important to being human? I'm not sure that is easily answered, but I think the journey is important. If it is, then what happens on the journey is important irrelative of it's length.

To presume that 'the speed we make the journey' is the most important metric opens the 'drug' question. Drugs are a lot less trouble than religion if they offer the same stuff.

Religion must offer us something more than making things happen faster.

 

[Hyver]

I suppose a christian would disagree with the assertion that it's false hope, and perhaps would argue that "god really does answer your prayers"....but how to explain when your prayers aren't answered? Didn't you pray hard enough? Weren't you a good enough christian? It brings personal responsibility onto external events - which is detrimental to coping with depression.....

But not all christian sects teach the view that God will answer prayers in the affirmative. I know that when I was growing up I was always told "God always answers prayers, he just doesn't always answer yes." Your goodness as a christian doesn't directly corralate into good things happening to you now. If it really did then why would christians need to believe in heaven? or hell? Or why would there be a question about dying for your faith?

Look around, only an idiot couldn't see that good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people (from a christian perspective anyway, I'm not saying any given person is good or bad). Given that I don't really see where christianity prolongs any of those steps.

 

[andyandy]

But not all christian sects teach the view that God will answer prayers in the affirmative. I know that when I was growing up I was always told "God always answers prayers, he just doesn't always answer yes." Your goodness as a christian doesn't directly corralate into good things happening to you now. If it really did then why would christians need to believe in heaven? or hell? Or why would there be a question about dying for your faith?

well that's the whole contradiction with christianity in a nutshell i guess....god has the power to answer your prayers, but chooses not to

ok around, only an idiot couldn't see that good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people (from a christian perspective anyway, I'm not saying any given person is good or bad). Given that I don't really see where christianity prolongs any of those steps.

those christians who solely accept the

being happy with what you have

part of the faith, i would regard as better equipped to deal with grief than those who believe wholly (or in part) in punishment of sin....

however, all christians who believe in the power of prayer would at the very least prolonging stage (4)....very likely resulting in a lapse back into (2) or (3) if that prayer fails....

(2) - denial - god won't let this happen
(3) - anger - why would god let this happen?
(4) - bargaining - if i pray, god will make things better.....