Can this qualify as a challenge?

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Members,

I would like to accept the challenge but firstly, I would like to know if this qualifies.

A spirit revealed that Jesus was born on May 23 and was crucified on August 17. His birth year is 33 BC and the year He died is 1 BC. I therefore claim that the revelation that Jesus was born on May 23, 33 BC and was crucified and died on August 17, 1 BC are true and correct.

If this claim is acceptable, I wish I would be able to prove scientifically that the revelation is correct.

Your help in presenting this as a challenge will be greatly appreciated.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[Darat]

I doubt it since you aren't making a testable claim.

However contact Jeff Wagg directly at jeff@randi.org, he's the JREF representative that deals with new applications.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Hi, PC! Welcome to these forums.

First, you need to find out: Wich is your supernatural claim? And how can it be verified?

You have made two claims:

1) A spirit revealed something. Was it revealed to you or somebody else?

2) Someone named Jesus was born on a certain date, died in a specific way, on a certain date.

#1 is very likely to be a supernatural claim, no matter what the spirit revealed.

#2 is not in itself a supernatural claim, it is a historical claim.

Of course, if you by "Jesus" imply a being of supernatural origen, the son of God, and not just some bloke named Jesus, then that is a supernatural claim, no matter when he was born and died.

In both cases, I think you will find it difficult to provide a verification.

Hans

 

[Burner]

Dear Members,

I would like to accept the challenge but firstly, I would like to know if this qualifies.

A spirit revealed that Jesus was born on May 23 and was crucified on August 17. His birth year is 33 BC and the year He died is 1 BC. I therefore claim that the revelation that Jesus was born on May 23, 33 BC and was crucified and died on August 17, 1 BC are true and correct.

If this claim is acceptable, I wish I would be able to prove scientifically that the revelation is correct.

How exactly would you prove this scientifically?

 

[Big Al]

There is actually no verifiable historical evidence that Jesus ever existed, let alone his birth and death dates.

This claim therefore cannot be tested.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

What exactly do you claim, PeaceCrusader?
How do you intend to prove your claim?
What would be a positive result, what would be a negative result?

Allow me to say that interpretation of scriptures does not qualify as valid proof. Neither do unverified and unverifiable scriptures, e.g. the Bible.



The numbers 5, 8, 17 and 23 remind me of the "Illuminatus!" trilogy. What was the name of the "spirit" you mentioned?

 

[Reno]

Have a read here PeaceCrusader, then perhaps you'd be good enough to show your scientific evidence to prove that this Jesus fellow you talk about existed.

 

[Moochie]

You're making a claim about an imaginary entity? Have you bothered to familiarize yourself with the JREF and what it is about?

Go away and come back when you can answer "no" and "yes" to the above.

M.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

Even if we accept that Jesus existed, and that you are able to "prove scientifically" that he was born and died on the dates you claim, this won't work as a paranormal challenge because you could have worked out the scientific proof ahead of time, and merely made up the claim that a spirit revealed those dates to you.

i.e.
Claim: A spirit revealed to me that February 29th 2008 will be a Friday.
Proof: Look at a calendar.
I'll take that $1m please.

Somehow, I doubt Randi will go for that.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Even if we accept that Jesus existed, and that you are able to "prove scientifically" that he was born and died on the dates you claim, this won't work as a paranormal challenge because you could have worked out the scientific proof ahead of time, and merely made up the claim that a spirit revealed those dates to you.

i.e.
Claim: A spirit revealed to me that February 29th 2008 will be a Friday.
Proof: Look at a calendar.
I'll take that $1m please.

Somehow, I doubt Randi will go for that.

Generally, JREF does not accept claims for deities:
"JREF will NOT accept claims of the existence of deities or demons/angels, the validity of exorcism, religious claims, cloudbusting, causing the Sun to rise or the stars to move, etc."

From here: http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html at the bottom of the page, first sentence of the paragraph which starts with: IMPORTANT:

As always, it depends on the claim. If PeaceCrusader comes with a valid angle for his claim, one which we surely have not yet heard of, JREF will most likely consider his claim.

I can't really imagine what that angle might consist of, but I will be glad to be shown something I don't know yet.

 

[Moochie]

Cute, but really damned stupid.

M.

ETA: Do you really think that in thousands of years such claims wouldn't have been proved?

 

[Jackalgirl]

Howdy, Aristeo --

As everyone else has pointed out, there's no independent way to verify your claim:

a) that Jesus existed
b) that your specific dates are correct.

However, another portion of your claim is that you received this information from a spirit. Is the spirit willing to give you other information? If that's the case, you might have a testable claim. Check out the Challenge Application board and look at the cases there. If your spirit can provide you with the kinds of information that those claims are claiming, then you can use a similar protocol.

For example, let's say your spirit is willing to provide you with information about what random word a person has pulled out of a box of words (in a different room). Your protocol could be something like this:

Equipment:
100 target words, compiled by you from a standard dictionary, on separate slips of paper, in a box with a coverable hole that's large enough to admit a hand, that has been shaken well by anyone who cares to, so that everyone's satisifed that the contents are scrambled.
Two rooms, separated enough by distance so that the persons inside can't tap, whistle, or otherwise communicate.
A person to pull out the "target word".
You
Two observers -- one with you, one with the "target word" person.
Notepads and pens
Two-way comms -- a radio with CW (morse code) capability, or otherwise some other means of non-verbal communications

Protocol:
The "target word" person sits in one room, you in another. Each of you has a pad of paper & a pen. Your observers have the comms units. The "target word" person pulls a slip of paper out of the box, looks at the word, writes it down on the sheet of paper. The "target word" person's observer will then "buzz" your observer with a single beep to let you know that the word has been drawn. Your observer responds with two beeps ("notification received").
Once you get your beep, you let the spirit tell you what the word was. You write it down. Your observer then sends a single beep back, which is responded to by a double beep. The "target word" person draws another word, and the process is repeated 10 times. The test is a success if you correctly identify the target word 8 out of 10 times.

This is just a re-hash of a protocol that was developed for someone else. The substance of that person's claim (that is, HOW they were receiving the information) was different from yours, but the EFFECT could be the same, if your spirit is willing to provide you with that kind of information.

And this is the kind of test protocol you'll need to develop in order to apply for the JREF prize. You have to be able to demonstrate, under controlled conditions, something paranormal. So you'll have to figure out whether your spirit is willing to provide you with information, and what kind of information, then design a test that demonstrates you couldn't have gotten that information any other way.

Will you be able to do this?

 

[webfusion]

Just out of curiosity, what would those dates be, using the calendar of the time (the Hebrew lunar calendar commonly in use then)?

If you have direct contact with a 'spirit' this information should not be hard to ascertain and we could then verify it.

(BTW, your offering the correct Hebrew dates is not proof of anything, except clarifying that you understand the kind of detail we skeptics routinely seek when faced with such a claim).

We await post #2.

 

[Loss Leader]

A spirit revealed that Jesus was born on May 23 and was crucified on August 17. His birth year is 33 BC and the year He died is 1 BC. I therefore claim that the revelation that Jesus was born on May 23, 33 BC and was crucified and died on August 17, 1 BC are true and correct.

Oh, I hope he wasn't crucified in August. I mean, it's just so hot in August - especially in Israel. August just could not have made that experience very pleasant. I submit that we believe Jesus was crucified on a slightly breezy Sunday morning in mid-March.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

My Dear Fellowmen,

Thank you for your responses.

There are those who deny that Jesus Christ ever existed, like Big Al, Reno, Moochie. Could we assume that a man named Jesus existed some 2000 years ago that gave rise to Christianity, and that religion Christianity was declared as the state religion of the Roman empire more than 300 years later? Can we deny these facts?

I don’t want to argue about whether Jesus existed or not. Our (not only me) experience is talking to a spirit, and this is tape recorded. We cannot see Him but we can hear and talk to Him. He revealed the May 23 birth and August 17 death of Jesus. No year. But from one sermon, I deduced that He was referring to a 1 BC crucifixion and death.

Until now, no one has proved when Jesus was born and when He died. What I would like to ask is: are the dates that the spirit revealed correct? Is this challenge acceptable to JREF?

I sent an e-mail to Jeff Wagg, JREF representative, regarding this matter today. I hope I receive a favorable reply.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[Darat]

Folks - PeaceCrusader has acted in a very reasonable manner, he posted his question here, was directed to the JREF, he's contacted them. Lets see what the JREF's response is.

 

[Jackalgirl]

Until now, no one has proved when Jesus was born and when He died. What I would like to ask is: are the dates that the spirit revealed correct? Is this challenge acceptable to JREF?

How would someone (you, JREF, or anyone else) determine that the dates are correct?

 

[GzuzKryzt]

My Dear Fellowmen,

Thank you for your responses.

There are those who deny that Jesus Christ ever existed, like Big Al, Reno, Moochie. Could we assume that a man named Jesus existed some 2000 years ago that gave rise to Christianity, and that religion Christianity was declared as the state religion of the Roman empire more than 300 years later? Can we deny these facts?

I don’t want to argue about whether Jesus existed or not. Our (not only me) experience is talking to a spirit, and this is tape recorded. We cannot see Him but we can hear and talk to Him. He revealed the May 23 birth and August 17 death of Jesus. No year. But from one sermon, I deduced that He was referring to a 1 BC crucifixion and death.

Until now, no one has proved when Jesus was born and when He died. What I would like to ask is: are the dates that the spirit revealed correct? Is this challenge acceptable to JREF?

I sent an e-mail to Jeff Wagg, JREF representative, regarding this matter today. I hope I receive a favorable reply.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

PeaceCrusader, deducing might not be good enough to stand up as valid proof for you claim.

Also, it is not up to us to deny something. It is on you to prove your claim.

You said scientifically. What exactly did you mean by that?

 

[Loss Leader]

What I would like to ask is: are the dates that the spirit revealed correct? Is this challenge acceptable to JREF?

PeaceCrusader, I don't speak for the JREF but I think you have a serious logical problem with your challenge: How are we supposed to determine if the dates revealed by this spirit for a past event are correct? There are only two ways:

1) Paranormally - In that case, our information would be as unverifiable and unreliable as yours. How could we say that your dates are right?

2) Through Normal Research - If normal scholarly research supports these past dates, then anyone could have done the research to discover them. How could we say that you found these dates paranormally and not by, say, reading one of the many, many sources that actually tries to reconstruct when Jesus was born and when he was crucified?

Can you explain how you would like us to verify your information? And can you explain how you would like to prove that you got your information from a spirit and not at the library?

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Darat, Jackal Girl, and my Fellowmen,

Thank you, Darat, for referring me to Jeff Wagg, the JREF representative. I hope he finds the challenge that the dates the spirit revealed are correct.

[quote user=Jackalgirl]
How would someone (you, JREF, or anyone else) determine that the dates are correct? [/quote]

I will try to prove that the dates revealed by the spirit are correct scientifically. Normally, people believe that Jesus was born around 1 BC but 33 BC is very far off. Also, people believe that Jesus was crucified and died around AD 30. The spirit says 1 BC. This is again very far off the accepted year. Is the spirit correct? Let us put it to a test.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo