can scientology really brainwash someone?

andyandy

anthropomorphic ape
andyandy
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I was reading the "operation clambake" website

http://www.xenu.net/roland-intro.html

which is devoted to exposing the somewhat dubious nature of scientology....

in it there is the following paragraph....

The results of applying their crackpot psychotherapy (called "auditing") is to weaken the mind. The mind goes from a rational state to an irrational one as the delusional contents of the subconscious mind are brought to the surface and are assumed to be valid. It also makes a person more susceptible to suggestion since it submerges the critical thinking faculties of the mind into a partial subconscious state. It results in a permanent light hypnotic trance and so from thenceforth that person can be more easily controlled. The person will, to a much greater extent, believe and do whatever they are told. And of course this is used to the full in persuading them to hand over further money and dedicating themselves further to the cult.
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....to what extent is this true? Or is it a little woo itself?
 
It's a little woo in that it uses the language of Freud which is woo-on-a-stick. There is a wealth of psychological material on how people's perceptions and thinking can be moulded by outside pressures. For instance's Asch's work in the 50s.
 
Wudang said:
It's a little woo in that it uses the language of Freud which is woo-on-a-stick. There is a wealth of psychological material on how people's perceptions and thinking can be moulded by outside pressures. For instance's Asch's work in the 50s.
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woo-on-a-stick lol :D

I'd certainly accept that people's perceptions/thinking can be moulded by outside pressures....absolutely....

but the paragraph itself seemed to be stretching that a little far...

It results in a permanent light hypnotic trance
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that can't be true can it?
 
It's almost entirely woo. And the sad fact is, it doesn't have to be.

Scientology wins converts by helping people with big egos and low self-esteem realize that nothing is their own fault. Every bad thing that happens isn't because of you, but because of the negative "thetans" burdening you and keeping you from achieving perfection or even the negative "thetans" of others bringing you down. You are not responsible for your failures.

That's a pretty powerful message. And a lot of people buy into it because it makes them feel better about themselves. There's no hypnotic trance or subliminal suggestion. It's all basic psychology - the basic psychology of how to appeal to rich ego-maniacal jerks.
 
It's really just the same method that's used in christian alpha classes. The victim is questioned constantly until their brain gets tired. Critical thinking is the first to go and it's easy to convince them of anything. The person is then constantly surrounded by people who discourage thinking, encourage acceptance, and reinforce what was said.
 
The operation clambake site is pretty interesting. Having read much of the site, especially the testimonials, it seems that much of the "brainwashing" occurs outside of the auditing, and is geared at getting people to buy into the auditing (both figuratively and literally). The main goal of all the "lessons" seems to be to convince the initiate that anything not based on the "teachings of L-Ron" is not only incorrect, but also destructive. This is accomplished through focused marketing, sleep deprivation, differential reinforcement of "acting scientological" with extinction/punishment of not acting so, and clever use of cognitive dissonance ("if I paid so much for it, it must be good"). Best as I can see, the auditing is primarily a means of getting more money out of people (both as auditees and auditers, who must by the overpriced auditing machines), and maybe secondarily a means of further brainwashing.

Of course, posting this message makes me an SP (suppressive person) in scientology speak, and thus (if you're to believe a guy who says volcano dwelling aliens are the source of much of humanities problems), nothing I say can be trusted.
 
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Hypnosis? No. Brainwashing? Yes, as long as you don't mean "total pesonality makeover" by "brainwashing". Scientologists - like most cult members - are willing victims.
 
andyandy said:
that can't be true can it?
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Sure it can. Hypnotic trances are "real," in the sense that you kinda know you're just playing along, even while you are pretending to not be playing along.

I am sure that is an accurate description of what it feels like to an ex-scientologist. That strange mental fugue where you know it's wrong but you believe it anyway. We all experience that sometimes. The magic of scientology is that they can keep it up for years.
 
I agree with jmercer. It's not a "permanent light hypnotic trance" but it is brainwashing. I was brainwashed by the US Army in Basic Training. They used sleep deprivation, food deprivation, physical exhaustion and removal of all individuality to break us down. Then they used classical conditioning, group dynamics and intensive training to build us up into soldiers. I remember the day we did bayonet training. We marched several miles to a training feild and spent the rest of the morning in an open formation clubbing and stabbing rubber dummies on command.

"Butt stroke to the head, MOVE!"
(sound of 200 dummies being clubbed)
"Slash to the chest, MOVE!"
(sound of 200 dummies being slashed)
"Stab to the gut, MOVE!"
(sound of 200 dummies being stabbed)

Later they sped it up to: "Butt Stroke! Slash! Stab! Butt Stroke! Stab! Butt Stroke! Slash! Stab! Slash!"

I remember thinking that if he told me to turn and do that to the person next to me I would. I would do it then casually wonder when/if we would break for chow. I wasn't even scared or freaked out about it. It was just interesting that my way of thinking had been changed just like that.
 
The Anderson Report is an interesting read, that covers this area. I'm not sure exactly what "brainwashing" means, but Scientology does seem to employ some form of mind control. The "TRs" look like a lot of laughs.

It has been reported that Hubbard gave public hypnosis demonstrations shortly before Dianetics was published, and in his Dianetics/Scientology books he seems to be obsessed with it (hypnosis).

eta: article: "The Use of Mind Control in Scientology."
 
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Loss Leader said:
Scientology wins converts by helping people with big egos and low self-esteem realize that nothing is their own fault.
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"big egos and low self-esteem"? Please explain how that is not self contradictory.
It's all basic psychology - the basic psychology of how to appeal to rich ego-maniacal jerks.
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Scientology has more than its' share of rich ego-maniacal jerks but it also has more than its' share of working class chumps and penniless peons. The idea that it only preys on the wealthy is totally false.

.
 
If you leave you are completely severed from any friends or family members that are still in. Some people stay in for just that reason.

Scientology teaches that you are better than everyone else in the world and lots of people like that message, see christianity. Like christianity they aslo offer super powers and healings. The mission earth series is a abortion but its still easier to choke down than any version of the mess called the holy bible.

I will never be able to understand how either of them get anyone to join.
 
Anti_Hypeman said:
I will never be able to understand how either of them get anyone to join.
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Because you are lonely, because you have no friends, because you are scared? $cientology, like all religions and cultsm gives you a sense of belonging. You are no longer an insignificant speck in the Universe, you are a member of a special group to whom "The Truth" has been revealed. You belong. You are special.

Gord
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
Because you are lonely, because you have no friends, because you are scared? Gord
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Well said Gord, I would add "Because you are human"
We have all been in one or more of those conditions at times. If we meet the right (meaning wrong) person at that time our lives can easily take a turn it would not have taken were we not so vulnerable.
 
Many peoples' opinion on anything is basically whatever they were told last. If someone who acts as though he knows says something firmly enough, many of us will accept it- especially if we can't be bothered to check.
Which reminds me. Who here has actually taken one of the Scientologists' personality tests?
I have. (I'm a creative genius, but deeply troubled).
What they failed to spot was the complex genetic pattern I created by pencilling in the blanks on the test sheets.
 
The thing that I'm most curious about re: Scientology is this: Do the people at the "top" of the organization Really & Truly believe the Scientology mythology, dogma, and metaphysics? Or do they know it's all just a scam?
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
Because you are lonely, because you have no friends, because you are scared? $cientology, like all religions and cultsm gives you a sense of belonging. You are no longer an insignificant speck in the Universe, you are a member of a special group to whom "The Truth" has been revealed. You belong. You are special.

Gord
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Hey scientology has the bonus that when you reach certain levels you get all those super powers. Everyone knows Tom Cruise can raise the dead.
 
negativ said:
The thing that I'm most curious about re: Scientology is this: Do the people at the "top" of the organization Really & Truly believe the Scientology mythology, dogma, and metaphysics? Or do they know it's all just a scam?
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From the offical website ( http://www.scientology.org/html/opencms/cos/scientology/en_US/religion/catechism/pg041.html ):
OT (Operating Thetan) is a state of spiritual awareness in which an individual is able to control himself and his environment. An OT is someone who knows that he knows and can create positive and prosurvival effects on all of his dynamics. He has been fully refamiliarized with his capabilities as a thetan and can willingly and knowingly be at cause over life, thought, matter, energy, space and time.
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Control life thought, matter, energy, space, and time? I think the people at the top know that cannot do those things. And yet that doesn't stop them from telling the lower-level church members that those super powers await them if they complete all the auditing to reach OT VII and above.
 
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