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"Can science prove God does not exist?"

From the article

By demonstrating that these entities are not needed to explain anything, science has proven that they do not exist.

I don't see how the conclusion (bolded, underlined by me) follows AT ALL from the premise. So if I don't need a god to explain something, that proves that no such god exists?

Logic aside, to prove a universal negative you have to look through all of time and space, past present and future, everywhere. Last time I checked, that was difficult to do.
 
I'll admit that I am convinced that it does prove the non-existence of god.

However, I do argue with it's theory that Vulcan does not exist.


How else would you explain Mr. Spock?;)
 
Re: Re: "Can science prove God does not exist?"

T'ai Chi said:
I don't see how the conclusion (bolded, underlined by me) follows AT ALL from the premise. So if I don't need a god to explain something, that proves that no such god exists?
You have to remember to take in all of the related arguements, if you break it down into individual statements, you omit some of the important supporting arguements.

The article showed one of the logical inconsistancies of a Supreme God, then it explained how everything could have come about just as did sans creator, then it gave a few examples of some bad postulates that have been dreamed up (just there for clarification), then it showed how belief in God was unacceptable as a form of reasoning. From the material provided, it is reasonable to conclude God does not exist.
 
sorry don't buy the arguments

quote: "One need only show is that it is epistemically unnecessary-that it is not required to explain anything. Science has proven the non-existence of many things in this way, such as phlogiston, the luminiferous ether, and the planet Vulcan",

these were disproven because to accept them would contradict some other observation, e.g. the Michaelson- Morley experiment etc. It is unlikely that these theories could ever be revised to cover our known observations.

A lesser proof would be to show that it goes against experience, e.g. I accept there are no red crows in the world because no one has ever seen them. This is not a proof that red crows could not or do not exist, only that it seems unlikely. However, if one did pop up on an island somewhere, I would not worry at all. I feel God is a bit like that, no proof but hey he could be hiding.

The problem is simply in the word "prove". If you want to make it cover both cases above - fine thats your definition and you have "proved" gods nonexistance. If like me you feel a bit uncomfortable about that, then you remain an agnostic.
 
This is very unscientific.

The claim that god exists is nonfalsifiable. Therefore, it is outside the domain of science. Science can neither prove, nor disprove the existance of any god.

Furthermore, the idea of proving a negative, as this article claims, runs against logic, as well as science itself.
 
Some Friggin Guy said:


Evidence, please.

I would like hard proof that the existence of god is nonfalsifiable.

and I would like hard proof that the claim that the existence of god is falsifiable

The author is claiming that there is no phenoma in the natural world that needs a god to explain it (in principle), therefore god does not exist. That may be true (though my Christian wife says she experiences god's presence - does that count?) but has yet to be proven. E.g until science explains all of the natural phenoma in the Universe, then god is still viable. You may say, well its just a matter of time. OK I can wait, but until then, CASE NOT PROVEN.
 
I was not saying case proven. (Okay, I did in an earlier post, but that was jsut to make a cheesy Star Trek joke.)

What was was saying is that god IS falsifiable...in theory.

You are correct, we can't do it now. There may come a time where we actually prove he DOES exist, but until then, to say god is nonfalsifiable is jumping to just as much of a conclusion as saying it is falsifiable.

Essentially, I am saying that I disagree that god exists outside of science. However, it doesn't exist entirely within science either. God, basically straddles into science.
 
I guess that means my worship of the invisible pink unicorn is perfectly reasonable, then! (To certain posters)
 
sorgoth said:
I guess that means my worship of the invisible pink unicorn is perfectly reasonable, then! (To certain posters)

not only reasonable, but if it keeps you out of trouble, desireable.
 
Since the focus is clearly the Christian concept of God, I will offer this one... albiet internal and possibly weak evidence for the disproof of God (and I am loathe to use proof out of it's proper context). Anyway. In Romans I it states that God is actively visible in the actions of the entire universe. Ergo, if there is any action that God is not actively visible one can conclude that said Deity does not exist.

My chosen example for this is star formation, which, we are told in the Psalms is due to the direct fingers of God. If we then observe star formation that is not due to some supernatural effect like the direct fingers of God, can we conclude otherwise than said God - based on Romans vis a vis Psalms, does not exist?
 
If I may critique the article:
They violate the most fundamental law of logic-the law of noncontradiction-which says that nothing can both have a property and lack it at the same time. So one way to prove a universal negative is to show that the notion of a thing is inconsistent.
This is actually a very strange false dicotomy. While on the surface, it makes sense, we now know of phenomena in the universe that do have a property and lack it at the same time. The real world is more complex than simple binary (yes/no) logic would have us believe. So, right from the get go, his argument has a real world flaw, even though it is valid within the philosophical context it is presented.
To prove that God does not exist, then, one only has to demonstrate that the concept of God is inconsistent.
This would only be true if (1) the above assumption were true and (2) there were a concrete, non-floating definition of "God"
Traditional theism defines God as a supreme being-a being than which none greater can be conceived, as St. Anselm would have it. We know, however, that there is no supreme number because such a notion involves a logical contradiction. Every number is such that the number 1 can be added to it. If there were a supreme number, it would be such that the number 1 can and cannot be added to it, and that's impossible. Many believe that the notion of a supreme being is just as incoherent as the notion of a supreme number.
Is the heirarchy of "being" completely analogous to the concept of numbers? What he presents in this passage is not an argument, but an opinion. As such, it is unproductive to the discussion.
Consider, for example, the claim that god is all-good and thus both perfectly merciful and perfectly just. If he is perfectly just, he makes sure that everyone gets exactly what's coming to them. If he is perfectly merciful, he let's everyone off. But he can't do both. So the notion of a supreme being may be internally inconsistent.
Okay, this is a valid contradiction, but I have a few problems with the way he presents it. First, the author claims that this is an example of the analogy with numbers given above and I'm not sure I see the connection. If someone can explain how this exemplifies or supports the connection, please let me know.

Second, this is, yet again, another of the many free-floating definitions and criteria for the term "God". He's not found an internal inconsistancy for the concept of "God" but for one definition of "God".
What if it's logically possible for the God of traditional theism to exist? Does that mean that one cannot prove that he does not exist? No, for in order to prove that something does not exist, one need not show that it is logically impossible. One need only show is that it is epistemically unnecessary-that it is not required to explain anything. Science has proven the non-existence of many things in this way, such as phlogiston, the luminiferous ether, and the planet Vulcan.
Oo. This is flat out incorrect. These various thing were disproven, not because other explinations were found that didn't require them, but they predicted things that did not occur. Ether, for example, predicted an "ether drag" that was never observed. I'm not that familiar with "phlogiston", but Vulcan would have been predicted to be certain places at certain times based on orbital calculations. Obviously it was a no show.
proofs, unlike logical proofs, do not establish their conclusions beyond any possibility of doubt.
Hey, he got one right!

Screw the rest of the article. The author's premises and general understanding of science is enough off base that any evidence presented toward those premises would be pointless.

I'm sorry, Yahwah, but I can't see any merit in this piece.
 
sorgoth said:
I guess that means my worship of the invisible pink unicorn is perfectly reasonable, then! (To certain posters)

Gah! Stop that! Invisible and pink are contradictory qualities!
 
c4ts said:


Gah! Stop that! Invisible and pink are contradictory qualities!

I think he means that only he can see the holy pinkness. Keep on the medication sorgoth :)
 
This piece just seems to be using a bland Christian definition for God, but makes little headway even against that very narrow definition of God.

To pick up on one of the passages that Upchurch also commented on:

Consider, for example, the claim that god is all-good and thus both perfectly merciful and perfectly just. If he is perfectly just, he makes sure that everyone gets exactly what's coming to them. If he is perfectly merciful, he let's everyone off. But he can't do both. So the notion of a supreme being may be internally inconsistent.

Even as someone who has great trouble understanding how a Christian reconciles "evil" in the world with an "all good" God I can see several flaws in this passage. The main flaw to me is that there is an assumption of the definition of "just" and "merciful" to support the argument the author was trying to make. After all how do we determine "logically" what is just or merciful?
 
Upchurch said:

Screw the rest of the article. The author's premises and general understanding of science is enough off base that any evidence presented toward those premises would be pointless.

Seconded.
 
UnrepentantSinner said:

My chosen example for this is star formation, which, we are told in the Psalms is due to the direct fingers of God. If we then observe star formation that is not due to some supernatural effect like the direct fingers of God, can we conclude otherwise than said God - based on Romans vis a vis Psalms, does not exist?

Well, I would like to know how you can rule out for certain that God's fingers are putting the star together. You know, someone could argue that when creating the universe, God specifically placed all the atoms so that some time in future they would form the star in question.
 
I just wanted to point out that just because I disagree with this article and think that science can't prove that God does not exit, that does not mean, automatically, that God does exist.

I should also point out that, if God exists, it should be theoretically possible for science to do so. Since no one has done so, this could mean one of three things:
  • God is not there to prove.
  • God is there and is subverting attempts to be proven.
  • God is there but we haven't found that pivotal piece of evidence.
Personally, I don't believe that anything is "unknowable", so I reject outright the possibility that "God is there but is unprovable." If God is there and effects the physical world, that effect is detectable.
 

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