Can anybody help me find a logical explanation for this stuff?

[Zanders]

For a while I have doubted any psychic or paranormal phenomenon, always finding a rational "logical" explanation for the events instead. But lately I have been finding way too many events that seem unexplainable by conventional scientific logic. Here is one in particular that I find fascinating. (It won't let me post any links until I get more posts, so I will just copy and paste it here)

It might be best to look up Emanuel Swedenborg on wikipedia before reading this information, so you will be more familiar with what he does..

"There are three well known incidents of psychic ability reported in literature about Swedenborg.[48] The first was from July 29, 1759, when during a dinner in Gothenburg, he excitedly told the party at six o' clock that there was a fire in Stockholm (405 km away), that it consumed his neighbour's home and was threatening his own. Two hours later, he exclaimed with relief that the fire stopped three doors from his home. Two days later, reports confirmed every statement to the precise hour that Swedenborg first expressed the information.[49]"

Swedenborg was relatively unknown until 1759 when a fire broke out in Stockholm, Sweden, which threatened to burn down his house and all his writings. At the time Swedenborg was at a dinner in Gothenburg, 480 kilometres away. He suddenly turned pale and described to the guests exactly what was happening, until the fire was put out three houses down from his house. This unintended demonstration of clairvoyance became well known, and was even investigated by Kant himself as he was now confronted with a way of obtaining knowledge that was not derived from logic or reasoning. He wrote letters to Swedenborg, and even purchased the entire set of Arcana Coelestia. This resulted in Kant publishing what scholars call one of his most "tortured" works,[32] Dreams of a Spirit-Seer, in which he criticized Swedenborg and knowledge derived from dreams and visions. However in private letters Kant confessed he clothed his views in irony, and had great admiration for Swedenborg, but did not publicly admit it for fear of ridicule.[33]

There are other cases that I will post later, but it will be inconvenient without begin able to post links.

 

[paximperium]

Did any of this ever actually happened?

 

[LTC8K6]

Seems pretty vague to me.

 

[Marduk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg#Psychic_accounts

problem with this is that there is no reliable proof. We only know this happened because Swedenborg said it did in his own writings. Just because no one at the time said otherwise doesn't make it true, especially as the books that Swedenborg wrote were at the time prohibitively expensive and the population was largely illiterate


the only person who investigated the claims was Immanuel Kant

In 1766 he published Träume eines Geistersehers (Dreams of a Seer) where he concluded that Swedenborg's accounts were nothing but illusions

 

[Zanders]

problem with this is that there is no reliable proof. We only know this happened because Swedenborg said it did in his own writings. Just because no one at the time said otherwise doesn't make it true, especially as the books that Swedenborg wrote were at the time prohibitively expensive and the population was largely illiterate

That is not actually true. In fact, he never wrote about it himself. It was written about by Immanuel Kant and others after the people that witnessed it were impressed and spread it around. Also, you mis-quoted that last one. Immanuel Kant wrote that he believed his accounts and visions were illusions, except for the fire, of which he could not explain. Please be careful and unbiased when reading this stuff.

"Immanuel Kant, then at the beginning of his career, was impressed by these in 1763, and made inquiries to find out if they were true. He also ordered all eight volumes of the expensive Arcana Cœlestia (Heaven Secrets). In 1766 he published Träume eines Geistersehers (Dreams of a Seer) where he concluded that Swedenborg's accounts were nothing but illusions. He could, however, not give a scientific explanation for Swedenborg's description of the fire in 1759.[52]"

Also of note when referencing that

"However in private letters Kant confessed he clothed his views in irony, and had great admiration for Swedenborg, but did not publicly admit it for fear of ridicule.[33]"

 

[PixyMisa]

Logical explanation: It's not true.

 

[paximperium]

That is not actually true. In fact, he never wrote about it himself. It was written about by Immanuel Kant and others.

So I will repeat.
Did any of these things even occur?

 

[Zanders]

So I will repeat.
Did any of these things even occur?

Look in the references for the fire on wikipedia, Immanuel Kant confirmed that the fire did in fact happen. Go to the "psychic accounts" article for Emmanuel Swedenmorg and the second paragraph of the "opposition" section on the page for Swedenborgianism.

 

[PixyMisa]

Look in the references for the fire on wikipedia, Immanuel Kant confirmed that the fire did in fact happen. And that was after the impressed people that witnessed it spread the story around

So the fire happened. Fires happen.

And?

 

[paximperium]

Look in the references for the fire on wikipedia, Immanuel Kant confirmed that the fire did in fact happen.

So a fire occurred. Was it even close to what this fella claimed?

And that was after the impressed people that witnessed it spread the story around

Who are these witnesses?
When was this supposed dinner party?
Who were the dinner guests?
What exactly are their accounts of the events?

 

[wardenclyffe]

For a while I have doubted any psychic or paranormal phenomenon, always finding a rational "logical" explanation for the events instead. But lately I have been finding way too many events that seem unexplainable by conventional scientific logic. Here is one in particular that I find fascinating.

I don't think anyone necessarily disbelieves that the fire happened. Nor do I necessarily disbelieve that it stopped three doors away from his house. It's the part about the prediction that we might disbelieve.

OK, let's pretend that this happened last week instead of two centuries ago. There's a fire in a town that stops three doors from a particular house. The next day, the owner of that house, who was at a dinner party hours away says that he knew the fire was happening and that it would stop three doors from his house. The dinner party was actually at a campsite with no electricity or cell reception. Some of his friends from the campsite swear he's telling the truth. Do you automatically believe him?

Can you think of no other explanation than it was psychic powers?

Ward

 

[avengingwatcher]

Law of large numbers would explain this. A hot day before current building standards was a tinderbox waiting to happen and many fires happen around the same time because we are habitual creatures and dinner is when you were most likely to have an accident where fire is prone, especially before electric cooking. Also a response would most likely have been mounted and taken a specific amount of time especially as the night cooled or winds changed allowing the firefighters more leeway. Also the story is rife with confirmation bias, guests may have remembered things a certain way to make the story more exciting to those they relayed it to until it became the truth in their own minds. A scientist would easily be able to fabricate and extrapolate needed information even subconsciously.

 

[Bikewer]

As noted, during this time period cities were fires waiting to happen. Concentrated populations all heating with fire (wood stoves, fireplaces, braziers, etc.), lighting with candles, no real fire protection to speak of...Etc, etc.
Predicting a fire would be about equivalent to predicting a terrorist bombing in Baghdad.

 

[Marduk]

That is not actually true. In fact, he never wrote about it himself. It was written about by Immanuel Kant and others after the people that witnessed it were impressed and spread it around. Also, you mis-quoted that last one. Immanuel Kant wrote that he believed his accounts and visions were illusions, except for the fire, of which he could not explain. Please be careful and unbiased when reading this stuff.

"Immanuel Kant, then at the beginning of his career, was impressed by these in 1763, and made inquiries to find out if they were true. He also ordered all eight volumes of the expensive Arcana Cœlestia (Heaven Secrets). In 1766 he published Träume eines Geistersehers (Dreams of a Seer) where he concluded that Swedenborg's accounts were nothing but illusions. He could, however, not give a scientific explanation for Swedenborg's description of the fire in 1759.[52]"

Also of note when referencing that

"However in private letters Kant confessed he clothed his views in irony, and had great admiration for Swedenborg, but did not publicly admit it for fear of ridicule.[33]"

Perhaps you should read back through what you wrote there and then tell me again that you are looking for a logical explanation
because from my perspective what you are doing is attempting to debunk all explanations

 

[Zanders]

Perhaps you should read back through what you wrote there and then tell me again that you are looking for a logical explanation
because from my perspective what you are doing is attempting to debunk all explanations

I'm trying to be as critical as I can and not just brush something off quickly with the most simple explanation I can find. I want to be very thorough and open minded before I discard claims. This is not the only event that has gotten me more interested in exploring phenomenon like this, and I can post some others later.

 

[Marduk]

I'm trying to be as critical I can and not just brush something off quickly with the most simple explanation I can find. I want to be very thorough and open minded before I discard claims. This is not the only event that has gotten me more interested in exploring phenomenon like this, and I can post some others later.

Ok
so to examine a paranormal claim you have to examine the evidence that the paranormal ability exists

can you show me anywhere at all where Kant said he believed it happened, because all I'm seeing is that he didn't

 

[marplots]

For a while I have doubted any psychic or paranormal phenomenon, always finding a rational "logical" explanation for the events instead. But lately I have been finding way too many events that seem unexplainable by conventional scientific logic. Here is one in particular that I find fascinating.

Logical explanations:
1) For a short period, between Jan 27th of 1758 and Oct 19th of 1760, some people were able to have knowledge of events that were displaced from their immediate senses -- sometimes by many hundreds or thousands of miles. Unfortunately, people who research this today cannot demonstrate such happenings and the phenomenon is now considered illusory or contrived, although during the period mentioned it was operating.

2) Someone hired an arsonist.

3) It's a great story, it just isn't true.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

There is a bit more information at http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Immanuel_Kant#Kant_and_Swedenborg:

Kant and Swedenborg
In the years preceding the birth of his critical philosophy, Kant had also been confronted directly by the question of afterlife through the works of the Swedish scientist and spiritualist Emanuel Swedenborg. In his correspondence, one finds clear evidence of his fascination. When it was reported that Swedenborg had given a detailed description of a fire that had just broken out 50 miles away, Kant commented: “[This] occurrence appears to me to have the greatest weight of proof, and to place the assertion respecting Swedenborg’s extraordinary gift beyond all possibility of doubt” (qtd. in Sewall, 158). In 1766, only five years prior to the publication of his first critique, Kant still admitted in a letter to Moses Mendelssohn that “I cannot help cherishing an opinion that there is some validity in these experiences in spite of all the absurdities involved in the stories about them” (Kant’s April 8, 1766 letter to Mendelssohn; qtd. in Sewall, 162).
In Dreams of a Spirit-Seer Elucidated by Dreams of Metaphysics, published in the same year, Kant however covers Swedenborg’s claims with sarcasm, while at the same time still hinting at his desire to be able to believe in them. The change appears to have been motivated by a combination of personal reasons (Swedenborg persistently ignored the young Kant) and theoretical ones: Kant was unable to include the reality of spirit world into his nascent epistemological system. Significantly, in the title and content of this 1766 publication, Kant indicates that for him metaphysical speculation was just as unfounded as spiritual visions. From then on, Kant’s discussion of religion focused almost exclusively on the moral aspect and avoided any positive reference to the supernatural in terms of our cognitive functions. As he put it in the Critique of Pure Reason:
A substance which is permanently present in space, yet without filling it… or a peculiar fundamental power of the mind of intuiting the future by anticipation (instead of merely inferring from past and present events), or, finally, a power of the mind to place itself in community of thought with other men, however distant they may be—these are conceptions the possibility of which has no ground to rest upon. (CPR, A 222-223, B 270).

The story appears to be unverified and probably is unverifiable. I’m guessing it probably would not have gained any significant recognition if not for Kant. We have all heard such stories, and perhaps even told such stories ourselves of curious coincidences or exaggerations of unlikely events. Such stories show up almost daily on Snopes. Swedenborg had a story that was maybe true, maybe and exaggeration, maybe something he made up after the fire. We don’t know. We do know that people make up, or exaggerate these types of stories all the time. And in some cases, seemingly extraordinarily unlikely events do occur. There is simply not enough there is to seem miraculous or supernatural or paranormal. Even a whole bunch, a whole mountain of these types of stories, while it may seem like a considerable amount of evidence, is actually a mountain of a whole bunch of fluff and nothing that collapses when we compress each case down to yet another untruth that we would likely see debunked (if possible) on something like Snopes.

 

[autumn1971]

I don't mean to be a complete cynic, but what about the possibility of a dinner-party joke that turned out to be real?
People now, and I assume always, tend to make jokes about horrible things, so perhaps there was some sort of "I have to go, there's a fire threatening my house" one-liner. Hilarious because the guy is so far from being able to get to his house that night. Goes over great. A couple of hours later, the banter turns congenially against Swedenborg, and he is reminded that he must leave to see to his house, to which he replies, "oh, the fire has been put out by now." More hilarity.

I actually once was drunk in a dorm-room at William and Mary College (I was not a student there), and I joked that a loving god would not have taken Sam Kinison, but Mother Teresa. The next day, one of the "dinner-party" guests stopped me on campus with the news that Mother Theresa had died the previous night. I can kill nuns with my mind.

 

[Zanders]

I found a page with a little more information on it.

"Swedenborg made no effort to establish a religious sect or to induce people to form themselves into a church following. In fact, his efforts to remain anonymous with regard to his theological works lasted until 1759. In that year an incident occurred in Sweden which brought him considerable notoriety and which eventually led many to connect Swedenborg for the first time with his unusual theological works, particularly Heaven and Hell. In July, in the city of Gothenburg, approximately 300 miles from Stockholm, while he dined with friends at the home of William Castel, a wealthy local merchant, Swedenborg became pale and disturbed, withdrew for a time to the garden, and returned with news that a great fire had broken out in Stockholm not far from his home. He said that the fire was spreading rapidly and he feared that some of his manuscripts would be destroyed. Finally, at 8:00 p.m. he spoke with relief: "Thank God! The fire is extinguished the third door from my house!"

Persons present, disturbed by the incident since some had homes or friends in Stockholm, were impressed by Swedenborg's apparent clairvoyance. The same evening one of them told the story to the provincial governor and he, in turn, requested that Swedenborg render him a full account. The next day, Sunday, Swedenborg gave the governor details regarding the nature and extent of the fire and the means by which it had been extinguished. News of the alleged fire spread widely in the city of Gothenburg and the subject became the general topic of conversation.

Not until Monday evening did a messenger arrive, from the Stockholm Board of Trade, with details on the fire. Since they agreed with those Swedenborg had given, the general curiosity aroused made him a public figure, and not long afterwards his authorship of Heaven and Hell and the Arcana Coelestia became known. A variety of prominent persons, curious to meet with a man who claimed to be able to see into the spiritual world, began to write accounts of Swedenborg and his habits. Those who had not yet had an opportunity to meet him tended to conclude that Swedenborg had become insane. After meeting and talking with him they found him, on the contrary, to be quite reasonable. They frequently ended in a quandary, not willing to accept his sweeping claims, yet convinced of his sanity."

Also, go to the "Veracity" section on his wikipedia page. One of the things that makes it special is that the specific detials he gave were confirmed, such as it being stopped three doors down from his house.