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Can a country with a politically illiterate public be a true democracy?

Barsdamian

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I was drawn into a debate about this topic with a group of volunteers I sometimes work with on drug policy issues. I am curious to hear others thoughts on the question.

This came up as we are organizing opposition to Canada's bill C-15 which is a bill to amend the controlled substances act to stiffen penalties for drug production. This bill will introduce mandatory minimum sentences for non-violent offenses into the Canadian legal system for the first time (Legal experts correct me if I am wrong on that fact). My group is specifically concerned with the marijuana production part of the bill which can now result in a 9 month mandatory minimum for growing a single cannabis plant. That's right 9 months for growing a plant.

Its just a bad bill, plain and simple. Every expert in both drug policy and criminal justice have unanimously panned it, many of them testifying before the senate to that effect. Provinces complain that it will flood prisons and costs will soar. Every shred of evidence to be found indicates that this bill will have the opposite of its intended effect and is, in fact, the largest gift that our federal government has handed organized crime in some time as it will almost certainly drive many smaller producers out and make the business more lucrative.

In short, if there is a good argument for this bill I have yet to hear it and I've been studying it and working in opposition for over two years now.

Justice minister Rob Nicholson has been repeatedly asked to provide any data that mandatory minimum sentences have any deterrent effect on crime and he has refused. He falls back to a talking point where he states that 70% of Canadians want this bill, referring to a vague poll done by the conservatives that asked people if they thought criminals are treated too softly by the Canadian justice system.

We decided to test this by doing some of our own polling and the results are alarming but hardly surprising. Here's what we found.

-In the almost 400 people we were able to survey, almost no one had even heard of the bill by its number or name.
-When given the standard conservative party description of the bill, we found that it had broad support.
-People would express support based on the party blurb but beyond that couldn't even answer the most basic questions about what the bill actually does.
-Even more disturbingly, the vast majority couldn't even answer simple questions about the functioning of our government or how a bill gets passed.

A member of the group has also been tracking media coverage of the bill and found that over the past 2 years the bill has received scant media attention and when it did, almost 50% of newspaper articles cited inaccurate or outdated information.

Now I know this is only one bill but I have no reason to believe that Canadians' political education is any better in other areas. So here's the question that arose out of our little experiment...

Can a country whose citizens are this politically illiterate, forming their opinions from a media who can't even report on a simple piece of legislation with accuracy really meet the most stringent criteria and be considered a democracy?

Does a true democracy at least require a functioning media and at least somewhat politically literate population to function?

I'm interested to hear others views on the subject. Sorry for being so long-winded. Thanks for reading. :)
 
Does a true democracy at least require a functioning media and at least somewhat politically literate population to function?

I'm interested to hear others views on the subject. Sorry for being so long-winded. Thanks for reading. :)
Is there a distinction between indifferent and illiterate here? :confused:

Old adage: people get the government they deserve.

A true democracy is whatever its people agree it is (typically via their constitution or other foundational agreement).

As assumption made in the foundation of many modern democracies is that transparency in government is a desirable feature of democracy. A free press aids in transparency, by bringing before "the reading public" some of what government is doing.

If the populace are still apathetic, all the free press in the world won't make the democracy very functional. Sure, it's a democracy, but so what, if nobody bothers to advocate for change? It turns into oligarcy/autocracy/syndicracy/autocracy in such a case.

In short, if there is a good argument for this bill I have yet to hear it and I've been studying it and working in opposition for over two years now.
Your complaint seems to be against lethargy, apathy, and indifference.

Blame it on Xbox. ;)

DR
 
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You shoulda seen the 20+ page thread that came out of the whole Bill C-6 kerfuffle on another board...

That was ignorance founded on a whole other basis: CT theories, astro-turf lobbying and the eternal "natural medecine" vs Big Pharma debate...

To the OP: you seem to be involved in the process here, what do you think the chances of it passing are? Doesn't sound like something the BQ or the NDP would be backing, are the libs backing on this one??
 
Old adage: people get the government they deserve.

A true democracy is whatever its people agree it is (typically via their constitution or other foundational agreement).

I suppose in practice this is correct. People do get what they deserve. If their choice is to abandon ship then they deserve to sink.

If the populace are still apathetic, all the free press in the world won't make the democracy very functional. Sure, it's a democracy, but so what, if nobody bothers to advocate for change? It turns into oligarcy/autocracy/syndicracy/autocracy in such a case.

Again good points. Although the mass media has done a very poor job informing people on this issue, it can't be said that the information is being suppressed. The info is out there, 5 minutes on google and you can learn a lot. But almost no one does.
 
All a true democracy requires is that its citizens are allowed to vote for their leaders in a fair election.

Of course, the US is a representative democracy. They don't vote directly for president and they don't vote on every issue.
 
You shoulda seen the 20+ page thread that came out of the whole Bill C-6 kerfuffle on another board...

That was ignorance founded on a whole other basis: CT theories, astro-turf lobbying and the eternal "natural medecine" vs Big Pharma debate...

To the OP: you seem to be involved in the process here, what do you think the chances of it passing are? Doesn't sound like something the BQ or the NDP would be backing, are the libs backing on this one??

Yes I was observing the debate about C-6 around the net and it was utterly ridiculous to be sure.

C-15 was passed in parliament and is currently in the senate. The Libs originally said there was no way they would support the bill. That quickly changed after Nicholson, Tony Clement et al went on a media blitz painting the libs as soft on crime. Ignatieff promptly did an about face and the bill passed with unanimous liberal support.

Well almost unanimous... Liberal member Dr. Keith Martin was allowed by Ignatieff to be absent during the vote. You see Dr. Martin said as a medical doctor he could not support the bill as it is harmful. I think its very telling that he feels voting for this bill violates the hippocratic oath he took.

When the bill hit the senate it was not rubber stamped as so many are but faced some lively debate with a few old time progressive conservative appointed senators opposing the bills ascent. It was referred to the justice committee twice and both times amendments were made. The amendments were a step in the right direction but only a tiny one and the wording of the bill still allows for a person growing a single plant in the right circumstances to be given a 9 month mandatory minimum.

Now the bill is back before parliament. They will vote on the amended bill and if it passes thats it. Honestly I don't see anything stopping it now. Even if parliament votes it down by some miracle, it will go back to the senate where Harper will have new appointees (funny how he likes an appointed senate now that HEs doing the picking). So one way or another its coming.

Just another bad law of hundreds or thousands that are out there.
 
Now the bill is back before parliament. They will vote on the amended bill and if it passes thats it. Honestly I don't see anything stopping it now. Even if parliament votes it down by some miracle, it will go back to the senate where Harper will have new appointees (funny how he likes an appointed senate now that HEs doing the picking). So one way or another its coming.

Just another bad law of hundreds or thousands that are out there.

Argh.

Totally the wrong direction. And we were so close under Crouton to actually making our drug policy more sensible...

Those warning of American "retaliation" to such moves would be wise to note what Obama's reaction was to Mexican decriminalization of all drugs - not a peep.

In any event, I guess what we could hope for I guess is a martyr out there, some cancer or AIDS patient who gets the mandatory minimum for growing one plant that could be used to rally politicians to change things...
 
Those warning of American "retaliation" to such moves would be wise to note what Obama's reaction was to Mexican decriminalization of all drugs - not a peep.

Its interesting to note that this bill likely had American influence in its genesis. C-15 rose out of the ashes of C-26 which died on the order paper prior to the last election. C-26 was written mere months after a meeting between the conservatives and American 'drug czar' John Walters. He made a special trip to Ottawa just for them. Of course, that was during the Bush administration. Now its just pure Harper ideology driving the legislation.

John Walters could possibly the most stunningly uninformed drug crusader to date. He once called cannabis growers terrorists who would not hesitate to aid other terrorists entering the country and perpetrating acts of violence. He was also fond of proclaiming that there were no marijuana only smokers and that they all graduate to harder drugs eventually. Ludicrous.

I have never in my life been so embarrassed of my country as I have been over the past 2 years. From Tony Clement's ridiculous distortions of data regarding the insite safe injection clinic (at an AIDS conference no less) to Harper handing half a million to an evangelical minister to 'study' the relationship between cannabis use and schizophrenia (Gee, I wonder what he'll find?) to appointing a YEC to a science ministry. I cannot believe what has happened to this country.
 
I'm not sure I follow the issue with the Canadian bill being considered, but it sounds like it could be the "Clear Skies Act" phenomenon we had in the U.S.

If you name something an anti-drug policy and most people no more about it than the name, it will likely get their support (or at least not get their opposition).

They will be taken out by the Texas Sharpshooters.
Excellent! You have a large crowd of purported Scotsman and you fire a shotgun into it. Only the true Scotsmen will be hit.
 
Can a country with a politically unknowledgeable public be a true democracy? Not for long...
 
Can a country with a politically unknowledgeable public be a true democracy? Not for long...
I don't know about that. The vast majority of Australians would profess no interest or even knowledge of the political process. If we didn't make voting compulsory, I doubt that we would get a 30% turn out. I think we are still a true democracy.
 
All a true democracy requires is that its citizens are allowed to vote for their leaders in a fair election.

Correct. And then they are ruled by autocrats (with an eye to opinion polls) for the next three or four years.
 
I was drawn into a debate about this topic with a group of volunteers I sometimes work with on drug policy issues. I am curious to hear others thoughts on the question.

This came up as we are organizing opposition to Canada's bill C-15 which is a bill to amend the controlled substances act to stiffen penalties for drug production. This bill will introduce mandatory minimum sentences for non-violent offenses into the Canadian legal system for the first time (Legal experts correct me if I am wrong on that fact). My group is specifically concerned with the marijuana production part of the bill which can now result in a 9 month mandatory minimum for growing a single cannabis plant. That's right 9 months for growing a plant.

Its just a bad bill, plain and simple. Every expert in both drug policy and criminal justice have unanimously panned it, many of them testifying before the senate to that effect. Provinces complain that it will flood prisons and costs will soar. Every shred of evidence to be found indicates that this bill will have the opposite of its intended effect and is, in fact, the largest gift that our federal government has handed organized crime in some time as it will almost certainly drive many smaller producers out and make the business more lucrative.

In short, if there is a good argument for this bill I have yet to hear it and I've been studying it and working in opposition for over two years now.

Justice minister Rob Nicholson has been repeatedly asked to provide any data that mandatory minimum sentences have any deterrent effect on crime and he has refused. He falls back to a talking point where he states that 70% of Canadians want this bill, referring to a vague poll done by the conservatives that asked people if they thought criminals are treated too softly by the Canadian justice system.

We decided to test this by doing some of our own polling and the results are alarming but hardly surprising. Here's what we found.

-In the almost 400 people we were able to survey, almost no one had even heard of the bill by its number or name.
-When given the standard conservative party description of the bill, we found that it had broad support.
-People would express support based on the party blurb but beyond that couldn't even answer the most basic questions about what the bill actually does.
-Even more disturbingly, the vast majority couldn't even answer simple questions about the functioning of our government or how a bill gets passed.

A member of the group has also been tracking media coverage of the bill and found that over the past 2 years the bill has received scant media attention and when it did, almost 50% of newspaper articles cited inaccurate or outdated information.

Now I know this is only one bill but I have no reason to believe that Canadians' political education is any better in other areas. So here's the question that arose out of our little experiment...

Can a country whose citizens are this politically illiterate, forming their opinions from a media who can't even report on a simple piece of legislation with accuracy really meet the most stringent criteria and be considered a democracy?

Does a true democracy at least require a functioning media and at least somewhat politically literate population to function?

I'm interested to hear others views on the subject. Sorry for being so long-winded. Thanks for reading. :)

No. It cannot. Be.
 
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This is a pity. Canada has usually been a shinning beacon for the Neanderthals to the south.
 
I'll admit I'd not heard of this Bill prior to your post, but then its subject matter does not concern me in the least. If it passes it won't affect me, if it's defeated it won't affect me. Hell if they completely legalise all drugs it won't affect me. Bill C-201 affects me, could you tell me your opinion of this without first looking it up?
 

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