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Cameron's EU speech

Giz

Philosopher
Joined
Jul 24, 2002
Messages
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No thread on this yet?

What do people think? (And can his EU promises be trusted?)



Edit: Hmmm, meant to have a poll but my connection crashed, something like:

a) About time we had a referendum (and I want renegotiation or out!)
b) I support a referendum (but would vote to stay in).
c) No referendum! You can't trust the demos!
d) Who cares what David Cameron says, you can't trust the man to follow through.
 
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I presume you mean that DC will be able to re-negotiate terms of membership? (In which case a referendum allegedly beckons)

(Or do you mean, the UK outside of the EU is a fantasy?)
 
We're boned if that happens. I don't trust the majority of my countrymen to not be colossally moronic xenophobes.
 
Its fantasy becasue its higly unlikly to get through parliament, there are far more pressing issues to worry about and hes jsut palying to eh right wing of his party in an attempt to buy them off and to try to undercut UKIP.

Its a tactical move that will be a massive strategic blunder for the UK.
 
Its fantasy becasue its higly unlikly to get through parliament, there are far more pressing issues to worry about and hes jsut palying to eh right wing of his party in an attempt to buy them off and to try to undercut UKIP.

Its a tactical move that will be a massive strategic blunder for the UK.

A referendum won't get through Parliament?

By the way, what would be the drawbacks vs. the benefits of leaving the EU?

I think it might be worth discussing them.
 
Are the Norwegians moronic xenophobes too?

I'm not a UKian so my opinion doesn't matter, but I don't really see the benefit myself.

Non-members Switzerland and Norway seem to get along quite well without being members.

The EU is becoming a transfer union. The UK already pays more to the EU than it receives from the EU.
 
Seems to me like it's a rather disingenuous offer, to try to arrest the drift UKIPwards.

Having said that it may be a genuine slippery slope that he's stepped onto since I strongly doubt that Cameron will be able to negotiate this "better deal" that he's after, which means that any vote would tend more towards "No" than "Yes".

Of course, it's all predicated on the Tories winning the election next time around...

The UK already pays more to the EU than it receives from the EU.

But isn't that just looking at "We pay the EU £X and they send us £Y to build new bridges, and £X > £Y so it's a bad deal " - it's not taking account of every benefit being in the EU offers. I am of course assuming that there are benefits to being in the EU.
 
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But isn't that just looking at "We pay the EU £X and they send us £Y to build new bridges, and £X > £Y so it's a bad deal " - it's not taking account of every benefit being in the EU offers. I am of course assuming that there are benefits to being in the EU.

Well, if you pay into a club more than you have a hope of getting out then the other perks of membership had better be worth it. Of course, one of the problems that a lot of "moronic xenophobes" have is that they don't see what those perks are.

So, let's hear what they are...
 
Well, if you pay into a club more than you have a hope of getting out then the other perks of membership had better be worth it. Of course, one of the problems that a lot of "moronic xenophobes" have is that they don't see what those perks are.

So, let's hear what they are...


That's something I'd like to know and it's not a rhetorical question, I just don't know enough about the subject to have a strong opinion about staying in the EU or not.
 
Bill of human rights.

Improved legal system with an additional court of appeals and strict regulatory laws (many of which the UK surpasses anyway when it comes to things like toy safety or food regs).

Preferred trade status with multiple countries.

Ability to purchase imports from outside the EU as a block of nations getting better deals.

Ability to purchase imports from inside the EU with very little cost including huge tax breaks.

Ability to get high quality medical care when travelling in EU countries with an EU health card.

Ability to move freely within the EU including the ability to settle in a foreign nation without a VISA or threat of deportation simply for staying for a long time.

Improved diplomatic relations with near neighbours.

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
 
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Bill of human rights.

Improved legal system with an additional court of appeals and strict regulatory laws (many of which the UK surpasses anyway when it comes to things like toy safety or food regs).

Preferred trade status with multiple countries.

Ability to purchase imports from outside the EU as a block of nations getting better deals.

Ability to purchase imports from inside the EU with very little cost including huge tax breaks.

Ability to get high quality medical care when travelling in EU countries with an EU health card.

Ability to move freely within the EU including the ability to settle in a foreign nation without a VISA or threat of deportation simply for staying for a long time.

Improved diplomatic relations with near neighbours.

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Just a couple of nit-picks...

I'm not sure that we should be taking lessons on human rights from those continentals... their record is, ahem, not as good as ours.

Sometimes they can have a negative effect on trade (i.e. our ability to trade freely with the commonwealth). (Note: the GDP of the Commonwealth is greater than the EU - and we have to apply the EU external tariff, on any trade with them).

"Improved relations with neighbours" - I'm not convinced by this. It seems that the (perceived) overbearing, undemocratic nature of the EU breeds resentment (did you see the Greek headlines about the Germans?). A looser arrangment migh lead to everyone "chillaxing" and relations improving. (My recipe for succesful EU integration is for all political harmonization to stop, keep the free trade and residency rules, scrap everything else... and after a couple of generations, see if a European demos has arisen... at which point there might be a use for a political framework to reflect that. Rushing things just antagonizes folks).
 
Are the Norwegians moronic xenophobes too?

Pretty much. At this point their non memership simply means they don't find out what the EU is ordering them to do until its emailed over to them.
 
Non-members Switzerland and Norway seem to get along quite well without being members.
As non-members Switzerland and Norway have no say on EU decisions that affect them economically, politically and even their legislation. They can only adapt to those decisions. This was discussed in more detail in your thread The UK and the EU.

The EU EMU is becoming may become a transfer union.
...according to a dated (August 01, 2011) article about Euro-crisis and some contemporary opinions of how to best solve it.

Not that "a transfer union" is out of possible eventualities. I'd support it provided it comes with representation which necessarily means more integration and less sovereignity. But currently an actual transfer union is something that's heavily opposed by member states and also for example by Merkel - as it's obvious that Germany would be by far the biggest payer.

EU nor EMU is not a transfer union and is not becoming such in near future. It is one of the possible paths in the long term. And I do know there's loads of articles, opinions and blogposts which argue that EMU (or even EU!) could/would/should/might/is/has been a transfer union, just as there's many with opposing opinions.

For example this article here argues that it must be so: What will a United States of Europe look like?
"Europe must move towards a transfer union and central financial authority – but the US's experience hints its path may be bumpy"
Could be, but I won't take his word for it.

The UK already pays more to the EU than it receives from the EU.
Poor UK, with their special rabatt and all, paying some more than being handed to.
So do many other member countries:
neteu1.jpg
(source: Puppycow's article)


The net contribution depends on how you calculate it as I demonstrated in Puppycow's earlier thread:
Arguably UK's net contribution in 2011 was € 7.255 bn. That's the biggest number you could come up with. But it depends on how you calculate. For example the previous number includes customs and duties that UK collects on behalf of EU, and arguably those are EU's monies to begin with and should be subtracted.

If you exclude those then UK's net contribution was € 5.57 bn (see this table). It's about 0.32% of GNI and about 0.8% of UK public spending.

UK is fourth largest net contributor after Germany (9 bn), France (6.4 bn) and Italy (5.9 bn). Per capita UK's net contribution was € 89 per citizen which is 11th highest among the 11 net contributors.

According to UK government estimates the single market brings in £30-90 bn a year into the UK economy.
UK's net contribution to the EU is not really that much compared to other countries and it's peanuts compared to market benefits.
 
I'm not a UKian so my opinion doesn't matter, but I don't really see the benefit myself.

The biggest benefit I was able to experience directly is the freedom to travel within the EU, and subsequently how it is easier to study or work in another country.

Beyond that, I am under the impression that despite its inefficiencies, the EU does a lot of things, some of them of great importance (which may or may not be beneficial).

But who knows? The biggest flaw in the whole construct is how remote and opaque it feels to most of EU citizens. Either by a failure to communicate or because the people do not care (or don't have the time and will to).

It only adds to the general impression the EU is built in spite of what its citizens may want, impression that is not baseless considering how some adverse results to referendums on the matter were just brushed aside.

Even though I understand that Mr. Cameron is probably being a demagogue on the issue, I find it very telling how defensive EU proponents sometimes get at the mere idea of subjecting it to popular approval.
 
Bill of human rights.

Improved legal system with an additional court of appeals and strict regulatory laws (many of which the UK surpasses anyway when it comes to things like toy safety or food regs).

Really? I think I would prefer the UK to be able to make its own laws and cobble together its own human rights statutes. I don't see why it needs tutlege and divine intervention from elsewhere.

Preferred trade status with multiple countries.

Ability to purchase imports from outside the EU as a block of nations getting better deals.

Ability to purchase imports from inside the EU with very little cost including huge tax breaks.

I think I would need to see some evidence of a net benefit here. One thing I do know is that a lot of equipment from Japan is subject to far more stringent "safety" checks than those produced in the EU. Presumably this means that the quality exports manufactured in the UK can get a form of protectionism from countries outside the EU, although what quality exports the UK manufactures these days, I am not quite sure.

Ability to get high quality medical care when travelling in EU countries with an EU health card.

Ability to move freely within the EU including the ability to settle in a foreign nation without a VISA or threat of deportation simply for staying for a long time.

That's nice and all that but I don't see why it has to come with such a price-tag. Besides, when it comes to medical care we do already have an NHS in Britain. How often do you travel to France or Belgium for medical care?


Improved diplomatic relations with near neighbours.

That's the mantra but I don't see it as being true. More and more I see people getting rubbed up the wrong way with "bureaucratic busybodies". What we are seeing is closer political integration but history demonstrates that this does not at all necessarily result in improved relations. Even England and Scotland, which was a pretty successful union is now talking of divorce.
 
But who knows? The biggest flaw in the whole construct is how remote and opaque it feels to most of EU citizens. Either by a failure to communicate or because the people do not care (or don't have the time and will to).

It only adds to the general impression the EU is built in spite of what its citizens may want, impression that is not baseless considering how some adverse results to referendums on the matter were just brushed aside.

Yes, I agree with this.

In related news, Richard Dawkins is saying that he doesn't see the point in a referedum because, after all, Europe is too difficult to understand and too complex, which is why we elect those clever MPs with their big brains to think this kind of thing through for us:

In UK We elect MPs to decide complex issues. Why a plebiscite on, of ALL things, a subect as complex & hard to understand as EU membership?

https://twitter.com/RichardDawkins/status/294346763278639106
 
What do people think?
My first reaction was: 2017? Come on, get on with it already.
If UK decides to leave it will be a big loss for both EU and UK. I wouldn't be happy about it.

And I agree with Tony Blair's assessment of Cameron's speech:
“It reminds me a bit of the Mel Brooks comedy Blazing Saddles where the sheriff … holds a gun to his own head and says, ‘If you don’t do what I want I’ll blow my brains out’.”

(And can his EU promises be trusted?)
Now that Cameron has declared UK to be a Schrödinger's Member of EU I don't know why would Cameron's word be trusted in EU until UK finally sorts it's membership status out. According to his plan only in 2017 the box will be opened, uncertainty collapses, and we'll find out if UK is a member or not.

I'm certain the markets will love this new uncertainty about UK's future - because markets just love uncertainty, don't they?

And meanwhile in EU there's important issues to be solved and reforms to be made. The 26 other countries have lots of work to do and hopefully will not become hostages of UK's whims du jour - EU is about a lot more than just UK.

Cameron's speech is here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/full-text-david-camerons-europe-speech-8462592.html
The speech is quite obviously directed to the anti-European "High Tea Party" within Tories and it concerns more domestic politics and the schism within the Tory party. But it's not all rubbish as he does have some good points in there.

But this
I don’t just want a better deal for Britain. I want a better deal for Europe too.
is just ridiculous. His speech and his plan about a "renegotiation" and referendum is all about getting a better deal for Britain.

As a way of achieving reforms in EU or "a better deal for Europe" his plan is silly. The way you could do it is work within EU by co-operation, forming alliances, diplomacy and negotiation. Those skills do not appear to be his strong suits and actually he has weakened his and UK's position with this speech.

By catering to the anti-Europeans of his party Cameron has stepped on a slippery slope where his ultimate position seems to be "failure is not an option". Look at his plan:
The next Conservative Manifesto in 2015 will ask for a mandate from the British people for a Conservative Government to negotiate a new settlement with our European partners in the next Parliament.

It will be a relationship with the Single Market at its heart.

[This is the step where undefined magic is supposed to happen]

And when we have negotiated that new settlement, we will give the British people a referendum with a very simple in or out choice. To stay in the EU on these new terms; or come out altogether.

It will be an in-out referendum.

Legislation will be drafted before the next election. And if a Conservative Government is elected we will introduce the enabling legislation immediately and pass it by the end of that year. And we will complete this negotiation and hold this referendum within the first half of the next parliament.
What if: there will be no renegotiation or renegotiation fails or the result essentially no better or something else. Then what? What is Cameron's plan B?

There is no actual plan B. It's essentially "failure is not an option". Not a very strong position to negotiate, I'd say. And what exactly is supposed to happen in that magical step between "mandate to negotiate" and "that new settlement"? :confused:

Joschka Fischer puts it bluntly: Cameron’s Speech and the Eclipse of British Reason
Cameron claims that he does not want the UK to leave the EU. But his strategy – “renegotiation” of EU membership, followed by a British referendum on the new agreement – is the product of two illusions: first, that he can ensure a positive outcome, and, second, that the EU is able and willing to give him the concessions that he wants.

In fact, there is good reason to believe that such a course would take on a dynamic of its own, possibly leading to an unintended British exit from the EU. That would be a severe setback for the EU; for the British, blundering through history, it would be a veritable disaster.

While Britain surely would survive outside the EU, the quality of its existence is another matter. By exiting the EU, the UK would severely damage its economic interests, losing both the single market and London’s role as a financial center. An exit would also harm Britain’s geopolitical interests, both in Europe (where, ironically, it favors EU enlargement) and, worldwide, in its global standing and special relationship with the United States (which has made clear its preference for a European UK).
...
But, while Cameron should know from grim experience what is looming, it seems that he has abandoned rational considerations. Indeed, the belief that the EU would renegotiate Britain’s membership terms – which assumes, further, that Germany would not object – borders on magical thinking. Such a precedent would be applicable to the other member states, which would mean the end of the EU.

With all due respect to the UK, dismantling the EU as the price of its continued membership is an absurd idea. Cameron should recognize that his strategy cannot be allowed (even if he fears that a few cosmetic corrections to the treaty won’t help him at home).


Cameron's suggestion "But first, let us remember the past" gave me an inspiration to re-read a truly great speech Churchill held in Zurich, 19th September 1946:
"We must build a kind of United States of Europe ... The structure of the United States of Europe, if well and truly built, will be such as to make the material strength of a single state less important. Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by their contribution to the common cause."


And, like Cameron, I do hope that in UK his speech will lead to a fact-based and balanced public discussion about EU.
 
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