CALLING ALL SCEPTICS: Can somebody PLEASE Prove me wrong?

[tommyz]

Greetings fellow sceptics!

Here's a post of mine from Penn and Teller's "Bull---t!" message board that I've decided to copy and paste on this board. The username of the individual (a very astute and intelligent atheist) I had originally replied to is changed out of respect for his privacy, but so far he has NOT been able to reply...and it's been about a week now. So I thought I'd give this message board a try to see if there is ANYONE who could point out any errors in my logic and over all reasoning process.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic; I just hate being ignorant and misinformed. If I am, will somebody PLEASE let me know! Thanks, and enjoy!

On December 23, 2004, I had originally wrote the following:

Sammy,

Did you ever notice that how the words "religion" and "retarded" go hand in hand? They both begin with the letter "r" and even have the SAME number of letters!

Anyways, yes I do believe in God. But I also believe that each and everyone of us experiences that divine realm differently, which is why I am so vehemently against organized religion of any kind. History has proven time and time again that any attempt at mass marketing a "holy experience" to large audiences only leads to conflict and choas over who has the "right" religion. And if you ask me, that's a pretty lousy, piss poor excuse for starting a war and/or killing innocent people as in the case of September 11th.

Each and everyone of us experiences God in our own unique ways. Mine is based on the more nobler aspects of the Bible (in particular of the New Testament); so my God is Jesus Christ. Yours is based on logic and reason; so your God is intelligence (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that).

The only problem that I have are with the proselytizing types. You see, a fundamentalist born again Christian's experience of God is based on eternal damnation; so thier God is NOT Jesus Christ...but FEAR. That's right...FEAR is their God. You would think that thier acceptance of Christ would be a sufficient enough antidote to their problem of eternal damnation, but NO...that's not enough. And there's no greater textbook definition of fear and insecurity than to have your faith in Christ be ENTIRELY dependent on OTHER people's faith in Christ. This crap has been going on for the past 2,000 years now, and STILL there are literally BILLIONS of people on this Earth who haven't accepted Jesus Christ. So realistically, what are the odds of one person's proselytizing attempts on a city street corner, to completey convert the ENTIRE WORLD by the end of his/her lifetime? Wouldn't it be SO MUCH EASIER for them just to admit defeat, and accept the fact that they are all going to burn in hell anyway?

I, for one, have absolutely NO USE for this childish GARBAGE, and I'm sure you don't either --we have better things to do with our precious time, thank you very much! At least, I'm sure, we could agree on that.

As far as me believing in Jesus Christ in my own unique way, so what if I'm wrong? I'll be honest with you, I probably am. The odds seem to lean that way, since I have yet to meet anyone who believes in Christ in EXACTLY the SAME way that I do. However, there IS but ONE THING that I know to be true and right with all the world, regardless what ANYONE wants to think, believe or worship in...and that my friend is the power of Love. “Love is patient, love is kind. Love is not envious, boastful, arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way, it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, and endures all things” (1 Corinthians 13: 4-7).

And no...that does NOT mean a sexual, romantic kind of love for everyone, and I'm sure as hell not going to ask you to go tree hugging with me (not that I do such kookey nonsense myself).
But lovie in its most practical, everyday, non-religious use of the word. Like saying "thank you" to someone who holds the door open for you. Or letting someone go ahead of you with only 2 items at the supermarket checkout line, while you patiently wait with your entire cart load. Or helping your young son or daughter with a challenging homework assignment. These are the most favorable yet very simple and doable acts of kindness that ANYONE and EVERYONE is capable of REGARDLESS of thier religious beliefs or complete lack thereof. Actions that help put smiles on people's faces, brightening their otherwise dull and dreary days, and ultimately winning you their trust and respect. Again, this is regardless (and I really want to emphasize here REGARDLESS) of what one may think or not think about, what one may know or not know about religion. Practice is ultimately more important than theory, no matter who or what you may think you are, and common sense along with common courtesy and respect should be priority #1 for everyone in ALL social situations. This is all that ANYONE could every possibly ask of anyone.

It's really not all that complicated of a concept once you think about it. Perhaps with this kind of attitude, we may have probably never even had a September 11th terrorist attack. But then again, I could be wrong, and as a rationally intelligent and fair minded individual, I'm always ready to admit when I am...

The ball is in your court, Sammy. So go ahead...prove me wrong. I'd be VERY interested to see how I am.

 

[VicDaring]

What point, specifically, are you looking to have refuted?


When you say, "I believe X," I don't know that anyone is in a position to say, "No you don't."

 

[tommyz]

Good question. Just to make it abundantly clear, it's the following point:

"...there IS but ONE THING that I know to be true and right with all the world, regardless what ANYONE wants to think, believe or worship in...and that my friend is the power of Love."

 

[B.S]

There is nothing to refute here,... you believe in God, you believe in Jesus, and you believe in love. All just beliefs. Nothing to argue about.

 

[apoger]

There is nothing to refute here,... you believe in God, you believe in Jesus, and you believe in love. All just beliefs. Nothing to argue about.

We can certainly argue about belief. The issue is why the person holds said belief.

If the reason is FAITH, which is belief offered without reason, then there is nothing to argue about.

 

[Z]

The finest statements about faith are those which proclaim faith without evidence... that is, those which admit that no evidence exists, yet faith prevails. That is the true nature of faith. After all, if there were evidence, then that faith would be knowledge, yes?

I have faith that there is a Deity. I have no proof, nor expect to find any. On the flip side, I highly suspect no proof against such a Deity can be found, either.

One may argue that holding a belief without supporting evidence or sound reason is irrational, yet we are not Vulcans, and irrationality is one of our many fascinating aspects.

So, to summarize - there is nothing in your post to refute. Have a nice day.

 

[Mercutio]

Good question. Just to make it abundantly clear, it's the following point:

"...there IS but ONE THING that I know to be true and right with all the world, regardless what ANYONE wants to think, believe or worship in...and that my friend is the power of Love."

Ok, you believe in it, but what exactly is the power of love? Do you claim that love does X or Y, or anything else? Anything one could operationalize? Anything one could measure?

As long as you are making the effort to be "abundantly clear", take a couple more steps. The power of love...to do what?

 

[Jeff Corey]

Why am I getting flashbacks to Yellow Submarine and "All You Need Is Love"?

 

[scribble]

As long as you are making the effort to be "abundantly clear", take a couple more steps. The power of love...to do what?

I have it on good authority that the power of love can make one man weep, and make another man sing. According to my sources, it can even change a hawk into a little white dove.

 

[Lisa Simpson]

I have it on good authority that the power of love can make one man weep, and make another man sing. According to my sources, it can even change a hawk into a little white dove.

I've heard you don't need money and don't need fame. Don't need no credit card to ride this train.

 

[Psiload]

I've heard you don't need money and don't need fame. Don't need no credit card to ride this train.

Yeah?...

well my love for this man's bald head is tougher than diamonds and stronger than steel... so there.

I double dog dare you to prove me wrong.

 

[Ashles]

"Jesus says we must be filled with love and not kill"
"No Allah says that"
"No I think you'll find that Jesus is the one giving this particular message"
"Unh unh, Allah is the one true God giving this message"
"Do you want to make something of it?"
"Yeah you and whose army"
fight, fight, fight

N.B. Please insert any other religious belief in place of Allah and Jesus and the 'humour' will work equally well.

 

[tommyz]

Ok, you believe in it, but what exactly is the power of love? Do you claim that love does X or Y, or anything else? Anything one could operationalize? Anything one could measure?

As long as you are making the effort to be "abundantly clear", take a couple more steps. The power of love...to do what?

Yup. That's exactly the kind of way I was hoping someone would answer; someone who could challenge my thinking. I really appreciate that very much, Mercutio, honestly...thank you.

Originally, this post was my reply to an atheist's post entitled "What if You're Wrong?" in which he challenged theists' beliefs by stating (along the lines of) that if your religion is wrong, wouldn't make sense to convert to EVERY religion, so that you don't miss out on going to heaven on a techincality?

My attitude on this entire issue of theology and religious beliefs is not so much a matter of whether one is "right" or "wrong" but whether or not the individual's beliefs WORK for him or her in terms of progressively moving his or her life forward. Sure, we can intelligently argue --with scientific evidence and sheer logic-- that the Earth is MORE that just 5,000 years old, and that there are an overwhelming plethora of contradictions, inconsistencies and even misinformation in the Bible (check out: www.skepticsannotatedbible.com to see what I mean) but so what? If someone wants to literally believe in the Bible, word for word, and accept it as "universal truth" well then fine --that's THEIR business. We might think of them as "having a couple of screws loose" or even worse. And while they certainly lack the perspicacity to qualify themselves as being among the brightest shining stars in the universe, as long as they know how to treat their fellow human beings with the utmost courtesy, dignity and respect...what more could we possibly ask of them? Or would you rather see such individuals hijack another commercial airliner with all of your friends and family members on board, and crash it into a building full of innocent people?

Forrest Gump said it best: "I may not be a very smart man, but at least I know how to love."

So to get back to your question, it's about PRINCIPLES, not rules. Rules state "this is how you MUST do 'X' and 'Y' to get the result 'Z'." Principles simply state "this is what WORKS...and ALWAYS HAS. HOW you decide to work it is totally up to YOU." Ideals such as Honesty, Integrity, Fairness and the Golden Rule are guaranteed principles with which we ALL want to be treated with. Love is no exception, and I mean that in it's most general, non-sexual, non-religious and practical kind of way...

I hate to have to repeat myself, but I don't know of any other way to say this more succinctly, so let me copy and paste again:

...like saying "thank you" to someone who holds the door open for you. Or letting someone go ahead of you with only 2 items at the supermarket checkout line, while you patiently wait with your entire cart load. Or helping your young son or daughter with a challenging homework assignment. These are the most favorable yet very simple and doable acts of kindness that ANYONE and EVERYONE is capable of REGARDLESS of thier religious beliefs or complete lack thereof. Actions that help put smiles on people's faces, brightening their otherwise dull and dreary days, and ultimately winning you their trust and respect. Again, this is regardless (and I really want to emphasize here REGARDLESS) of what one may think or not think about, what one may know or not know about religion. Practice is ultimately more important than theory, no matter who or what you may think you are, and common sense along with common courtesy and respect should be priority #1 for everyone in ALL social situations. This is all that ANYONE could every possibly ask of anyone.

How you decide to measure the "results" are totally up to you, but I'm sure that they'll be self-evident. Try telling the guy with only two items at the grocery check out line to "go do some more shopping, 'cause I'm gonna be here a while" may result in a rather ugly altercation, or even worse --especially if that individual was just released from prison, for all you may know.

Try telling your son or daughter that you're "too busy" watching sitcom reruns to help him or her with his or her homework assignment, and see just how much they'll want to listen to you in the future.

Which would you rather choose?

 

[Ashles]

I think it's (as always) like Bill Hicks says

"In LA they have the 'pedestrian right of way' law, because only in LA does common courtesy have to be legislated for."

Religion strikes me as being much like that. Legislation for (what should be) basic principles of common human decency.

After all it's not like atheists are the worlds worst criminals. Funnily enough, quite the opposite.

 

[Jeff Corey]

...Which would you rather choose? [/B]

Is the choice what? Mopery or what?

 

[Open Mind]

As already some what shown by the above posts, most skeptics do not wish to make opponents of ‘faith’ based religions since they claim no evidence. Science and Christianity seems to have had a cosy agreement to keep out of each other’s territory (how else can the bible construction problems known to researchers for centuries have been kept out of universities and media for so long? )

And this seemingly tolerant attitude is still largely present in the skeptic movement too, with a respectful ‘there is nothing to debate’ against ‘faith’ ……… yet as soon as someone claims psychic phenomena experience, the terminology is generally ‘liar, fraud, charlatan, con artist, insanity, scam, etc.’ or much worse

In a sense, the skeptic movement and Christianity are really on the same side, they just don’t realize it Both have been arguing against psychic phenomena for centuries, discouraging others from thinking it is a subject worthy of proper investigation. And in my opinion both are wrong to do so!

After a few centuries of Christians condemning psychic phenomena as evil, forbidding it’s investigation (a bible masterstroke, scare off any alternative belief systems arising)……. So when dead relatives, ghosts, etc. produced phenomena or were claimed to be seen … their bible said the dead were sleeping awaiting a judgment day (coming any day now for the past 2000 years) they claimed the visions were ‘devils’ and decided the claimant was a ‘witch’ and followed the bible words ‘Thou shalt not suffer a Witch to live’ ….. and guess what they did?

Where was the ‘love’ in that?

Personally I don’t think we need any religions or their books to indoctrinate us with primitive ideas of God, even in this materialistic skeptic forum, there is a little voice telling people what is good and what isn’t…… I think this is more than the brain at work, of course skeptics will disagree

I also think scientific proof of psychic phenomena and survival will be acknowledged in time.

 

[Tricky]

Ok, you believe in it, but what exactly is the power of love? Do you claim that love does X or Y, or anything else? Anything one could operationalize? Anything one could measure?

As long as you are making the effort to be "abundantly clear", take a couple more steps. The power of love...to do what?

I propose "hugaron", which is the power of love equivalent to a one-second hug. These are just a subset of various emotive units broadly classified as "feelarons", which include haterons, fearons and apatharons.

Thus, a romantic kiss can be measuered by how many equivalent one-second hugs it would convey. An evening of making out might contains kilohugs or even megahugs of emotive energy. A tent revival could measure in the gigahugs.

Conversely, the George Bush cabinet measures in the terrahates.

 

[Ashles]

As already some what shown by the above posts, most skeptics do not wish to make opponents of ‘faith’ based religions since they claim no evidence. Science and Christianity seems to have had a cosy agreement to keep out of each other’s territory (how else can the bible construction problems known to researchers for centuries have been kept out of universities and media for so long? )

Huh? Religion as a concept makes no demonstrable claims. Thus sceptics have nothing to ask evidence for.
Specific examples like stigmata or holy miracles are questioned as sceptically as any other paranormal claim.

I no more believe that Allah or God exist than I do dowsing works or homeopathy can heal, but the dowsers and homeopaths make claims that can be directly tested.
Religious beliefs can't be tested so the whole issue is fairly abstract. It doesn't mean that scepticism doesn't apply equally to those claims but it is such a theoretical argument that it can't go anywhere.

I also think scientific proof of psychic phenomena and survival will be acknowledged in time.

I also think that won't ever happen.

If it hasn't happened by now what would suddenly occur to make it happen?

 

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by Open Mind but slightly edited by me for concision.
Open Mind's usual stupid spam.

I should like to ask you why you have chosen this particular thread to drone out your usual rubbish, rather than any other? Is your gibble-gabble more relevant here than anywhere else? Why?



In reply to the original post : your points seem to be these

(1) Let's have so broad a definition of God that anything can be God that anyone admires, and that's just fine.
(2) But I'm going to be a Christian.
(3) Fundies are bad.
(4) Let's all be a bit nicer to one another.

I agree with (3) and (4). I should like to know how you justify (1) --- we know what we mean by God, you can't just say: "What if God's your left leg, then, ha, you sceptical atheist, there is a God and it was attached to your groin all along." In particular, "Intelligence" does not mean the same thing as "God".

But having accepted (1), how do you get to (2)? You can't just believe what you want --- I can't choose to believe in Santa --- so if you think one idea of what God is is as good as another, do you really believe in what you follow? If you've no reason to think Christianity is true, then is not your religion all ritual without belief? (The image which comes to mind is the foxhunter, who does not actually desire to wish the world of foxes, but rather to jump horses over hedges shouting "Tally-ho!")

It seems that you start off by making a mental fog in which God can be what you want. I don't see how we get to any conclusions from that.

 

[Nex]

Originally posted by Open mind
In a sense, the skeptic movement and Christianity are really on the same side

Er... no. Expanding on what Ashles said, religion as a concept is not the same as religion in practice. Christianity, in concept, makes no testable paranormal claims, while in practice many Christians do make testable paranormal claims. Miracles, stigmata, Virgin Mary in a cheese sandwich... all these things are paranormal claims of a religious nature which skeptics, by their cold-hearted nature , are skeptical of.
Also, Christianity as a whole is not against studying or researching claims of the paranormal like psi or homeopathy or whatever, only certain sects are, and they're by far a minority. Most sects and denominations have no teachings against researching the paranormal, only against practicing it.



Tommyz-- Personally, I don't see much to refute here. You believe what you believe on faith alone, and admit it openly. As long as you're not hurting yourself or anyone else with what you believe, it's kind of a waste of time to argue in this particular forum. (in my humble opinion, of course)

You may get different responses in the Religion & Philosophy forum.