Bush flip flopping

[Tmy]

Fisrt Condi cant testify, now she can..?!?? Thats a FLIP FLOP!!! Bush is flip flopping flip flopper! He can never complian about Kerry flip flopping again!

 

[Jocko]

Fisrt Condi cant testify, now she can..?!?? Thats a FLIP FLOP!!! Bush is flip flopping flip flopper! He can never complian about Kerry flip flopping again!

Boy are you grasping. They willingly waived executive privilege, which I think is a smart move and one that many other presidents have declined to do.

Never mind that it's not regarding a policy, a spending bill or platform support. It's procedural.

Now, when Bush denies he ever fought it in the first place, THEN you have a Kerryesque flip-flop.

 

[Tmy]

Im just havin fun Jerko. I like the decision myslef. I was just mocking the never ending kerry flip flop cliams every time he changes his lunch order.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I look forward to her 9-11 Commission appearance. Then all the cards will be on the table. He said she said, Rice vs Clarke, who's streching the truth and who isn't... under oath ...

 

[Jocko]

Im just havin fun Jerko. I like the decision myslef. I was just mocking the never ending kerry flip flop cliams every time he changes his lunch order.

Funny, the flip-flops I hear about have to do with multibillion dollar spending bills, fundamental rights, punitive tax policies and things like that. Haven't heard squat about his lunch order. If you think Kerry's diet is what makes a lot of people nervous, you need to find a newspaper, dude.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Mr. Flip-flop.

 

[Upchurch]

Bush vs. Bush

 

[Jocko]

If you think I'm going to let Real Player get its stinking tentacles onto my registry, you're quite mistaken, sir!

Care to give me the gist of it?

 

[Jocko]

Mr. Flip-flop.

The gist of that discussion is on positions, opinions and procedure. Show me inconsistencies in his voting record if you want to keep the Kerry comparison apples-to-apples. Kerry's biggest liability right now is his Senate record, not Timmy's imagined harping over whether or not he vacillated between the ham or the pastrami.

I don't have time to dig through the whole thread, so I apologize in advance if such substance exists much further down in it. But from what I see, it's not the same thing at all.

 

[headscratcher4]

I can give you one big one just off the top of my head...

2000 -- Nation building bad
2004 -- We are going to be in Iraq and afghanastan for a long time (note, this is not to suggest that nation building is, in fact, wrong or that we shouldn't be there, it is just that Bush has significantly changed his position without ever suggesting that he was wrong about his earlier position).

And, while I am at it, it may not be flip-flopping, but running a trillion dollar national debt in four years while running as a "fiscal" conservative seems a bit at odds with reality.

 

[Jocko]

I can give you one big one just off the top of my head...

2000 -- Nation building bad
2004 -- We are going to be in Iraq and afghanastan for a long time (note, this is not to suggest that nation building is, in fact, wrong or that we shouldn't be there, it is just that Bush has significantly changed his position without ever suggesting that he was wrong about his earlier position).

Interesting example, and I see your point. I think, however, it should be taken into account that nation-building is a slightly different animal when we're the ones who knocked the nations in question down in the first place, would you agree?

And, while I am at it, it may not be flip-flopping, but running a trillion dollar national debt in four years while running as a "fiscal" conservative seems a bit at odds with reality.

I think you mean deficit, rather than national debt. The national debt has started (to paraphrase Douglas Adams) begun to push back the very boundaries of mathematics, true, and deficits are worse than expected. But you overlook these factors at your own peril:

1. The "surplus" was an illusory abberation of the tech bubble.
2. The US has run a surplus in roughly what, 20 of the last 250 years?
3. The president has very little to do with the economy, good or bad, at least in his own time.
4. The president submits the budget, but congress decides how closely to follow it.
5. We've had a major blow of the national infrastructure and 2 wars recently. That stuff costs.

If there's a point to this, I guess it's that being economically liberal or conservative is about as significant in practical terms as a president's choice of tie.

 

[Kodiak]

Im just havin fun Jerko. I like the decision myslef. I was just mocking the never ending kerry flip flop cliams every time he changes his lunch order.

So is it your contention that Kerry did not cast votes on both sides of at least a score of different programs, bills, and agendas?!?

 

[Kodiak]

I can give you one big one just off the top of my head...

2000 -- Nation building bad
2004 -- We are going to be in Iraq and afghanastan for a long time (note, this is not to suggest that nation building is, in fact, wrong or that we shouldn't be there, it is just that Bush has significantly changed his position without ever suggesting that he was wrong about his earlier position).

And, while I am at it, it may not be flip-flopping, but running a trillion dollar national debt in four years while running as a "fiscal" conservative seems a bit at odds with reality.

Answer to both:

Pre 9/11 compared to post 9/11.

Pre 9/11: good economy with surpluses estimated out several years; WTC and Pentagon unharmed; Air traffic as usual.

Post 9/11: WTC and Pentagon attacked by Al-Quida supported by Taliban; air traffic grinds to a halt; Wall Street takes nose-dive; UN resolution 1441 concerning Iraqi WMD time limit expires; Patriot Act, Dept. of Homeland Security, and War on Terror begin and are given federal funding; Invasion and occupation of Iraq.


Hardly whimsical flip-flops.

 

[Tmy]

Oh sure Kerrys gone both ways. Im not saying kerry never changed his mind or voted to the counter. I think some of those votes were based on cowardice rather than flopping.

For example the whole backing Bush prior to invasion. Who didnt vote for that??? If you didnt you were branded a anti american traitor.

As for voting on bills. I think you need to analyize things. rarely is a bill simple enough to sum up in a sentence. With all the pork barreling you might like one part a of a bill and hate another, but you cant line item vote on it.

 

[Kodiak]

Oh sure Kerrys gone both ways. Im not saying kerry never changed his mind or voted to the counter. I think some of those votes were based on cowardice rather than flopping.

For example the whole backing Bush prior to invasion. Who didnt vote for that??? If you didnt you were branded a anti american traitor.

As for voting on bills. I think you need to analyize things. rarely is a bill simple enough to sum up in a sentence. With all the pork barreling you might like one part a of a bill and hate another, but you cant line item vote on it.

Fair enough. Thanks.

 

[crackmonkey]

Kerry's votes on Iraq were pretty amusing... he voted against the forst Gulf War, but says he supported it; he voted for the second war, but says he was against it.

Kerry's reputation for flip-flopping is richly deserved.

 

[Lurker]

I am not a fan of gotcha flip-flops. It totally ignores changing data which may cause someone to reverse their position.

I would not count Bush flip-flopping on nation building. 9/11 thrust new ways of thinking on us. I don't fault Bush on this although I somewhat disagree with his invasion of Iraq.

I would not count Kerry's vote on Iraq flip-flopping. At first he believed the Intel and the stuff the president was telling the US. Later, after much of it was debunked, he changed his mind.

Context is everything. It is easy to find flip flops by ignoring context of those positions. But it is not necessarily accurate.

Lurker

 

[Snide]

I am not a fan of gotcha flip-flops. It totally ignores changing data which may cause someone to reverse their position.

I would not count Bush flip-flopping on nation building. 9/11 thrust new ways of thinking on us. I don't fault Bush on this although I somewhat disagree with his invasion of Iraq.

I would not count Kerry's vote on Iraq flip-flopping. At first he believed the Intel and the stuff the president was telling the US. Later, after much of it was debunked, he changed his mind.

Context is everything. It is easy to find flip flops by ignoring context of those positions. But it is not necessarily accurate.

Lurker

A refreshingly reasonable response. The politcs board has been seriously lacking such reason lately.

 

[Tricky]

Why is it surprising to anyone that congressmen are forced to make deals and to compromise. Look at the voting record of any of them, and you will find major inconsistancies. That is why it is so difficult for a congressman to be elected to president. They have too much that is on the record. I'm quite sure the same would be true of Bush, had he ever served in any legislative capacity.

However, there are a few issues where Bush has a "voting record" of sorts. Here's one big Bush flip flop.

Governer Bush: I will veto this "patients' bill of rights", but if they get enough votes to pass it over my veto, I will refuse to sign it.

Presidential Candidate Bush: In Texas, I passed a "patients' bill of rights."

 

[Kodiak]

Here's one big Bush flip flop.

Governer Bush: I will veto this "patients' bill of rights", but if they get enough votes to pass it over my veto, I will refuse to sign it.

Presidential Candidate Bush: In Texas, I passed a "patients' bill of rights."

That's not a flip-flop.

That's "spin"...