Brain Transplantation

[apollo13]

The thread title is not intended as anything I might recommend for certain recent frequenters of the R&P forum. Tempting, and well overdue, though it may be.

Picked this up at New Scientist:

Brain Transplantation

Question: I had heard of similar research previously, but had no idea it was so well advanced. Is there anybody out there who follows such things who may have a view as to the accuracy, and quality, of the reporting of this article?

The article accepts that there are many problems (the long distance connectivity thingummy for instance), however, the key protagonist, Theodore Berger, is qouted as saying: "There’s no reason why this approach couldn’t be used to replace any region of the brain".

In my view, taken at face value this is a pretty wide ranging statement. It begs several questions:

(1) Could the whole of the brain be replaced this way?
(2) Even if the current state of research is such that the answer to (1) is 'no' (which it is), is there any fundamental reason in principle why we could not develop prosthetics and implement them on a piecemeal basis? it seems to me that the brain is just a bunch of cells arranged into organ type structures (apologies for lack of technical accuracy, I'm not a doctor).
(3) If not, which bits could not be replaced? Why not?
(4) Would the recipient of the prosthetic (in any quantity) notice any difference?
(5) if there was a difference, would the recipient then be the same person?
(6) Does this mean that a thinking machine could be created simply by gradually replacing more and more of a human brain?
(7) If not, why not?
(8) Does this have any implications for free will? Solid state electronics is limited to obeying the laws of nature like everything else. If a good chunk of the brain is replaced by electronics, where then does free will emerge from (if at all)?
(9) What about consciousness? Would a gradual replacement of all or part of the brain lead to its erosion?
(10) If this does occur, who would notice the change - the recipient, his pals?


Any thoughts? Maybe I'm reading too much into this & if you've done something similar before, humour me - I'm relatively new around here.

Finally - I realise this is asking a lot on recent experience - but, if this thread does generate any interest it's going to be difficult to avoid touching on 'the soul'. Can we please try to avoid non-arguments of the "gift of god/trick of satan" ilk. If this is the best you can do - please don't post.

 

[Ed]

I think that it is a bit more complicated than reported: it is not so much as replacing a few neurons any more than one could tack on a few lines of code indiscriminately in a computer program.

It is the interconnections that are the rub.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Welcome apollo! Interesting post. I'm coming back when I get the chance to give this the reply it deserves. Hope the conversation doesn't get too far without me.

 

[c4ts]

You should post this in the science forum. I don't know much about neurology, but I think such an attempt would result in two extremely messed up individuals.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

In my view, taken at face value this is a pretty wide ranging statement. It begs several questions:

(1) Could the whole of the brain be replaced this way?

Not yet, as I see you note in the next question.

(2) Even if the current state of research is such that the answer to (1) is 'no' (which it is), is there any fundamental reason in principle why we could not develop prosthetics and implement them on a piecemeal basis? it seems to me that the brain is just a bunch of cells arranged into organ type structures (apologies for lack of technical accuracy, I'm not a doctor).

None that I am aware of, and I do try to stay informed as I can on the brain and its workings.

[snipped 3 as it does not apply, given my answer to (2)]
(4) Would the recipient of the prosthetic (in any quantity) notice any difference?

That would depend largely on the quality of materials, I think. It is imaginable that we could find a way to actually improve the brain, by replacing bits of it with circuitry that was schematically identical, but functionally superior. Perhaps a faster firing rate or lower misfire rate could lead someone to notice that their short-term memory, for example, was slightly improved.

The converse, of course, would also be true. If our equipment is lower fidelity than the brain itself, the difference may be noticeable. Either way, though, I believe we'd be looking at a difference of degree. Overall usefulness of the brain would remain unchanged.

(5) if there was a difference, would the recipient then be the same person?

Without a significant alteration of the memories and/or personality of the person, they remain the same person.

(6) Does this mean that a thinking machine could be created simply by gradually replacing more and more of a human brain?

Not quite. Actually we would have recreated a thinking machine, of which the human brain is already the supreme example (known to us).

[snipped 7]
(8) Does this have any implications for free will? Solid state electronics is limited to obeying the laws of nature like everything else. If a good chunk of the brain is replaced by electronics, where then does free will emerge from (if at all)?

Mentioning free will 'round these parts is brave work. For myself, I tend to avoid free will questions, since I've never heard a working definition of free will that made the slightest bit of sense.

This one, however, I'll take a stab at. No matter how much of the brain was replaced, the person would have free will in precisely the same manner and to the same degree as before.

(9) What about consciousness? Would a gradual replacement of all or part of the brain lead to its erosion?
[snipped 10]

See my answer for free will. It's the same bit. Whatever you decide consciousness means as applied to the pre-replacement person applies postop as well.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

It should be noted that my responses to the above all come from my acceptance of the computational theory of the mind, which essentially says the brain's just a big old parallel processor, which would make it substrate-neutral. You make anything with the connections and abilities of a brain, and you've got a brain, even if you make it out of granite and walnuts.

As a final note, I think all the fun questions along this line come in when, instead of replacing a brain with electronics, we just build a separate electronic brain exactly matching someone's living brain. Let me know if you want to bat that one about a bit.

 

[Piscivore]

Re: Re: Brain Transplantation

As a final note, I think all the fun questions along this line come in when, instead of replacing a brain with electronics, we just build a separate electronic brain exactly matching someone's living brain. Let me know if you want to bat that one about a bit.

Actually, yes... I was pondering this for a story idea, and I cannot but think that by "downloading" a personality into a suitable electronic counterpart, you can only create a copy. Meaning, you could never separate a personality from his "original equipment", the best you could do is copy and destroy the original. Am I wrong on this?

 

[c4ts]

Your downloaded self would think he had been separated at some point.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Re: Re: Re: Brain Transplantation

Actually, yes... I was pondering this for a story idea, and I cannot but think that by "downloading" a personality into a suitable electronic counterpart, you can only create a copy. Meaning, you could never separate a personality from his "original equipment", the best you could do is copy and destroy the original. Am I wrong on this?

Assuming one could construct the brain rapidly enough, you would, for a brief moment, have two separate entities that could reasonably be said to be the same person. However, immediately they begin to have (at least slightly) different experiences, which mold them in separate ways, creating two distinct personalities.

Think about a pair of identical twins at the "moment of conception." They're essentially two copies of the same person. But differences in development, and later, in experience, create two people, not carbon copies.

Now, since you're fishing for story ideas, how about this. Imagine the emotional turmoil of the new personality, particularly if we assume it is just simulated on a computer. It has the memories of (we hope) a loving family, good friends, maybe (this would be the really devestating bit) a spouse and children. It thinks it's that guy with that life, but it can't have it. You could make a lot of suicidal mental clones, I think.

Or, if you imagine we could construct a suitable body for the duplicate brain, just copy someone's loved one entirely, body and mind. Does it matter which one you send back home, and which you keep to run diabolic experiments on?

ETA: It would not surprise me to learn stories along these lines have already been written. I, not being a big consumer of science fiction, am unaware of any examples. Perhaps some of our other esteemed posters could help.

 

[Piscivore]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Brain Transplantation

Or, if you imagine we could construct a suitable body for the duplicate brain, just copy someone's loved one entirely, body and mind. Does it matter which one you send back home, and which you keep to run diabolic experiments on?

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Your downloaded self would think he had been separated at some point.

Separated from what? Just separated in two? If the original patient was sedated the entire time, how would the duplicate know it wasn't the real one, particularly if we could provide it a passingly human body? I realise this is far future stuff we're talking, and most likely science fiction altogether, but why couldn't you, in principle, pull the switch without the patient's knowledge?

 

[c4ts]

Yeah, they cloned my doctor, but screwed up somehow. He wouldn't stop cursing, and it was driving away the other patients. Finally, my doctor lured him onto the roof and pushed him off, then faked his own death. It would have worked, except somebody found out and told the police he was making obscene clone falls.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Yeah, they cloned my doctor, but screwed up somehow. He wouldn't stop cursing, and it was driving away the other patients. Finally, my doctor lured him onto the roof and pushed him off, then faked his own death. It would have worked, except somebody found out and told the police he was making obscene clone falls.

Ow, ow, ow.

 

[c4ts]

In answer to your other question, no, he wouldn't think himself separated if you two were indestinguishable, and if you never found out about each other, neither of you would think yourself a double. But it would be funny if you were told beforehand, because you'd both tell the other one he's the copy.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Exactly. Therein lies the fun.

 

[Piscivore]

I think I'm going to run with this concept for my first NaNoWriMo attempt. Wish me luck (or whichever non-theist positive affirmation you may choose)!

I've got an opening already, I think.

 

[apollo13]

Just a quick note to

(a) bump

(b) let piscivore know that I'm aware of at least one author who has explored (in fiction) the whole brain copying thing (extensively, but with mixed success IMO). Presumably you'd prefer me to hold back the details until after you've done your bit?

I have much the same views as the Marquis. I have a bit more difficulty with the 'same person' concept although I'm not certain that I'm not just being irrational.

Marquis: Assume you could have this done to you, and that for one instant you and your twin are identical "in all ways that matter" (a concept deliberately not defined!). Would you be comfortable with one or the other you (maybe the original if this could still be identified) being immediately vapourised. Would there be a net loss to the good Marquis's existence from this scenario? My head says no - my heart is not so sure.

I was well aware of the risks I was taking in mentioning free will - I've been lurking for a while - but what are we supposed to do?

On consciousness - it might be ironic if the level of consciousness were to be in some way emergent from organic matter. A gradual replacement with non-organic prosthetics might then lead to a gradual reduction in awareness/consciousness, but if combined with a 'normallly functioning' (if partly prosthetic) brain, nobody would ever notice.

For the record, I don't believe this for a moment.

Finally for today (probably) - a somewhat flippant question that occurred to me last night: "with a prosthetic brain, would I still be able to get drunk?" If yes - how? If not, can we really say that nothing (or nothing else) has really changed?

 

[EdipisReks]

this begs the question: do i want Greg Bear style personality transplantation, or Richard K Morgan style personality transplant?

 

[apollo13]

Edipis: I was actually thinking of somebody else, but I didn't want to be seen to be influencing Piscivore in his literary efforts.

Piscivore: Do we get a preview? Are you producing a novel or short story?

 

[Piscivore]

(b) let piscivore know that I'm aware of at least one author who has explored (in fiction) the whole brain copying thing (extensively, but with mixed success IMO). Presumably you'd prefer me to hold back the details until after you've done your bit?

No, quite the opposite; I don't want to "explore" ground that was well-trodden by someone else- that's lifegazer's M.O.

I think that what I'm going to do will be different enough anyway- what I'm planning is more a "Breakfast of Champions"/"Dr. Strangelove"/"Buckaroo Banzai" sort of thing than a "serious" exploration of the subject. Still, anybody, please mention any book or movie that has touched on this theme.

The contest site allows you to post parts of your text; I think I'll put up the first chapter, but I don't want to post too much as I'd like to eventually publish. My working title is "The Mind of Theseus".

This will be a novel. The challenge specifies 50k words in 30 days. I'll have to eventually expand it further to publish, most novels these days are between 80-120k.

My daughter has decided to do it too, the wife is considering it.

 

[jimmygun]

I have it on somewhat shaky authority that 1inChrist is the world's only living brain donor!