Boy it's lonely being a skeptic and questions about auras and magnetism

[MichelQC]

Hello all,

I had an "eye opening" experience last weekend, which I'm pretty sure many of you have been through already. Before I start to relate this let me just say that I've been a bona fide skeptic for a few years now but I have yet to find one person worthy of the name "skeptic" in my immediate entourage. It seems everyone, including my wife is into some kind of woo-woo beliefs, from UFOs to ghost to homeopathy, auras, premonitions you name it they believe it. I've had several heated discussions with my wife on a variety of subjects dealing with her beliefs but no amount of objections and appeal to lack off evidence seems to convince her. But luckily for me, my wife is pretty good natured and whenever we have these discussions she generally doesn't hold it against me.

One night last weekend we where at our friend's house after a night out just sitting around having a nice conversation, when the subject veered to one of my friend (the wife of the couple), beliefs in auras and UFOs (she claims to have seen one) and also in her sister supposed ability to manipulate a pendulum at will making it do incredible thing, like leaning always in the same direction and apparently being able to make the needles of gages in her car and speedometer move by just moving her hand on top of the dashboard. After a while I risked a comment to the effect that there is noe evidence that UFOs exist and that maybe her sister's feat was a trick and that magnetism from a human has never been demonstrated. At this point she really lashed out at me. How dare I put in question things that she had herself experienced! It was because I was "close minded" and "stubborn" and "refused to consider the evidence (her witnessing this)". When I suggested that perhaps what she saw was not exactly what she perceived she got even madder! Anyway to make a long story short the evening ended in a somewhat cold atmosphere. This is too bad because I'e know these people for close to twenty years now and they are otherwise good friends and I love them dearly.

Now I know this sounds a bit "AnnLandersish" but I was wondering if any of you fellow skeptics out there keep quiet about your skepticism because of fear of ostracism from friends and loved ones.

Also on a not-so-unrelated question; I tried to do a search on Auras (another one of my friends beliefs) but did not come up with a whole lot. Could some of you suggest links as to how one would test the validity of auras? Surely this must have been tested at the JREF? What was the protocol used on this occasion? Also I have no knowledge of magic, but what kind of trickery or device would be used to simulate magnetism (as in manipulating a pendulum or needle moving tricks) a la Uri Geller?

Well I feel better now so thanks to anyone who will read this. Whenever I visit this site I feel a little less lonely knowing there are other skeptics who are into rational thinking.

 

[blutoski]

Now I know this sounds a bit "AnnLandersish" but I was wondering if any of you fellow skeptics out there keep quiet about your skepticism because of fear of ostracism from friends and loved ones.

I think each skeptic has to weigh their personal situation. There's a time and a place for any discussion.

Also on a not-so-unrelated question; I tried to do a search on Auras (another one of my friends beliefs) but did not come up with a whole lot. Could some of you suggest links as to how one would test the validity of auras? Surely this must have been tested at the JREF? What was the protocol used on this occasion?

"auras" is too vague, I think. Some people see them, others only feel them (eg: practitioners of Therapeutic Touch call it a "human energy field or HEF"). The latter has certainly been tested, and famously so: by Emily Rosa.

Also I have no knowledge of magic, but what kind of trickery or device would be used to simulate magnetism (as in manipulating a pendulum or needle moving tricks) a la Uri Geller?

A hidden magnet? (eg: concealed in a fake finger)

However, it sounds more like the person who experienced this wasn't doing a trick so much as just doing bad observations. This is one where debunking may have to wait until she says she can do it on demand, then compare her efforts to what happens when she's not trying (baseline).

 

[case sensitive]

Hi Michel!

I sent you a personal message. Hope that can help you a little.

 

[Zygar]

It's no fun being the only skeptic in the room.

I think each skeptic has to weigh their personal situation. There's a time and a place for any discussion.

I agree completely. All of my family seem to believe in alternative therapies, most of them believe in psychics and other woo, and most of my family is LDS. So when we all sit down for Christmas dinner, I just keep my lips sealed when all the psychobabble and religion get trotted out. There's no reason to ruin nice family occasions with debunking, etc.

On the other hand, sometimes you just have to go with your gut and break the rule. Because you love them, you also don't want to let them get too deep in woo before you try to rescue them. I don't know the complete situation, but the important thing is not to let their anger affect you. Remember, every time you attack a deeply held belief, people take it as a personal attack. It is sometimes hard to keep the discussion from getting personal, but that is what you must do if you don't want to lose their friendship.

Good luck!

 

[MichelQC]

I think each skeptic has to weigh their personal situation. There's a time and a place for any discussion.

Very good advice I think, I will keep that in mind.

Thanks to everyone who replied

 

[RSLancastr]

After a while I risked a comment to the effect that there is noe evidence that UFOs exist

Well, if you stated it just like that, you are incorrect. UFOs do exist. There are things a person sees flying in the sky which he or she cannot identify. That makes it a UFO.

However, there is no evidence that any UFO is an alien spacecraft.

 

[logical muse]

So I was chatting to this guy and we started discussing homoeopathy. Almost immediately, he told me that his wife had studied it in her naturopathy course, although he himself was well aware it is just water.

His wife joined us and upon discovering our topic said "Hey, I like homoeopathy!" Before I had a chance to say anything she said that she knew it was just water (well, she said sugar and brandy, and water), but it was the hour or two the patient spent with the homoeopath that was effective.

It seemed to me that she had had her fair share of conversations with sceptics, and was sick of defending homoeopathy, so she just agrees with them. She's invested money and time studying it and doesn't want to acknowledge it's all bunk. By telling her it's rubbish, lies, and a scam, I'd be saying that she's either an idiot or a fraud. I like her and don't want to do that.

Almost everyone I meet believes in some paranormal thing, and so yes I understand your frustration. There are times I'm in a group and can't contribute at all because they are all saying "Yeah and I heard he dreamt he was gonna die in a car crash!" and everyone else nods sagely like this is some profound confirmation of their beliefs.

 

[MichelQC]

Well, if you stated it just like that, you are incorrect. UFOs do exist. There are things a person sees flying in the sky which he or she cannot identify. That makes it a UFO.

However, there is no evidence that any UFO is an alien spacecraft.

That is precisely what I meant, what I actually said at the time was that I did not doubt she saw something but what she saw was more likely than not explainable and that there was no evidence to suggest that it was an alien spaceship. Needless to say this comment wasn't received too well.

 

[MichelQC]

It seemed to me that she had had her fair share of conversations with sceptics, and was sick of defending homoeopathy, so she just agrees with them. She's invested money and time studying it and doesn't want to acknowledge it's all bunk. By telling her it's rubbish, lies, and a scam, I'd be saying that she's either an idiot or a fraud. I like her and don't want to do that.

Almost everyone I meet believes in some paranormal thing, and so yes I understand your frustration. There are times I'm in a group and can't contribute at all because they are all saying "Yeah and I heard he dreamt he was gonna die in a car crash!" and everyone else nods sagely like this is some profound confirmation of their beliefs.

I understand your point well and on a personnal level it is a good one. However my dilemma is this; Like Zygar mentionned above

On the other hand, sometimes you just have to go with your gut and break the rule. Because you love them, you also don't want to let them get too deep in woo before you try to rescue them. I don't know the complete situation, but the important thing is not to let their anger affect you. Remember, every time you attack a deeply held belief, people take it as a personal attack. It is sometimes hard to keep the discussion from getting personal, but that is what you must do if you don't want to lose their friendship.

I feel that by keeping silent on woo comments for fear of antagonizing people I am somehow condoning what the person is saying. The rational person in me is having a tough time keeping his mouth shut when I hear stuff like that. On the other hand being too blunt with people will perhaps make them shut their mind even tighter, so is speaking out against woo a loosing proposition? Guess it depends on who you talk to.

Thanks

 

[Gr8wight]

My Mother-in-Law believes in ghosts and psychics and a host of other woo things. Even my wife has inherited many of those beliefs. They believe that my MIL speaks to the ghosts in her home, and comforts them. I bite my tongue in order to be polite. The only time I speak up is in order to prevent my in-laws from spending money on woo crap.

 

[logical muse]

I understand your point well and on a personnal level it is a good one. However my dilemma is this; Like Zygar mentionned above



I feel that by keeping silent on woo comments for fear of antagonizing people I am somehow condoning what the person is saying. The rational person in me is having a tough time keeping his mouth shut when I hear stuff like that. On the other hand being too blunt with people will perhaps make them shut their mind even tighter, so is speaking out against woo a loosing proposition? Guess it depends on who you talk to.

Thanks

A friend of mine, a best friend for decades, was lost to me because of this. She comes from a woo family, believers in all things paranormal as well as conspiracy theories, alien abductions, atlantis, lined-up planets destroying the Earth, reiki, everything.

Without boring you with too much background, I became a kind of surrogate dad to her kid. I've helped raise the child from the age of seven to her current age of 19.

Having seen the detrimental effect of woo in the family (I won't provide details here), I used my influence to educate the girl. She is now the most level-headed, considerate, thoughtful, grounded person I know, unaffected and unafflicted by horoscopes, ghosts, mind-readers, palm-readers, tarot cards, psychics, conspiracy theorists, homoeopaths, magnetic healers, and so on and so forth.

Unfortunately, I had to constantly challenge her mum's belief system. It took its toll. The mum (my friend) has been convinced by some of my arguments and evidence, and has learnt some critical thinking skills. It did cause her to completely re-evaluate many things she took for granted, and she had to disavow herself of certain notions she had learnt from her parents. Our friendship was a casualty in this battle.

We still see each other, and are friendly and polite, but we've lost the closeness we once had. I'm not sure if we'll ever get that back.

 

[Ladewig]

On the UFO stuff, I wouldn't pointed out that there is no evidence, I would have asked how she came to the conclusion that is was a UFO and was not something else like a prototype for the next generation of military aircraft?


As for moving the needles, again, I would not have challenged the belief, but instead would have asked if I could see it demonstrated sometime.

I find that learning how people come to their beliefs is much more interesting (and more productive) than challenging people's beliefs.

 

[MichelQC]

A friend of mine, a best friend for decades, was lost to me because of this. She comes from a woo family, believers in all things paranormal as well as conspiracy theories, alien abductions, atlantis, lined-up planets destroying the Earth, reiki, everything.

Without boring you with too much background, I became a kind of surrogate dad to her kid. I've helped raise the child from the age of seven to her current age of 19.

Having seen the detrimental effect of woo in the family (I won't provide details here), I used my influence to educate the girl. She is now the most level-headed, considerate, thoughtful, grounded person I know, unaffected and unafflicted by horoscopes, ghosts, mind-readers, palm-readers, tarot cards, psychics, conspiracy theorists, homoeopaths, magnetic healers, and so on and so forth.

Unfortunately, I had to constantly challenge her mum's belief system. It took its toll. The mum (my friend) has been convinced by some of my arguments and evidence, and has learnt some critical thinking skills. It did cause her to completely re-evaluate many things she took for granted, and she had to disavow herself of certain notions she had learnt from her parents. Our friendship was a casualty in this battle.

We still see each other, and are friendly and polite, but we've lost the closeness we once had. I'm not sure if we'll ever get that back.

Thank you for sharing that. It certainly gives me reasons to perhaps reevaluate how best to introduce some elements of critical thinking in my conversations about woo beliefs. Diplomacy has never been my strongest point unfortunatly. I am reminded of an old saying that says "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".

In retrospect I hope you find some consolation with the fact that your influence did help your friend (and most importantly her daughter) develop a more critical approach towards the paranormal and the pseudoscientific. I believe your friend owes you and perhaps she knows this.

All the best,

 

[fishbait]

Why is it ok for woos to hold forth with their nonsense while you withhold your rational worldview? I never withhold my point of view in a conversation for the sake of offending someone. People who can't or won't respect my right to a point of view aren't worth having as friends.

Being held hostage by some weird concept of ettiquette just won't fit into my head.

 

[logical muse]

Why is it ok for woos to hold forth with their nonsense while you withhold your rational worldview? I never withhold my point of view in a conversation for the sake of offending someone. People who can't or won't respect my right to a point of view aren't worth having as friends.

Being held hostage by some weird concept of ettiquette just won't fit into my head.

(my bold)

Do you tell people it's just your point of view?

One of the problems I've faced is that a lot of believers of the paranormal and pseudoscience can huffily proclaim that they "are entitled to their opinion, or point of view" as a last resort in a discussion, whereas I can't rely on that.

I don't consider it to be just "my opinion" or "my point of view" that homoeopathy is just water, that waving a magic chip over my CDs will not make them sound better, or that you can't live on just air. To me, these are facts, plain and simple.

But claiming these as truths makes me seem arrogant, especially as I am usually the only person who goes against what's commonly accepted. Is it just my friends, or is everyone woo?

In most circumstances, I will tell people exactly what I think of their beliefs, be it astrology, numerology, homoeopathy, or whatever. Occasionally, like at an awards ceremony for a wearable art competition last week, it isn't the right forum. Over dinner or drinks, yes. Schmoozing with artists, models and dancers after the award presentation, possibly not.

 

[Zep]

The best you can hope for is to make them start questioning their preconceptions. Not necessarily convince them right there and then in a family situation - that requires them to publicly back down or renege on cherished beliefs, which isn't likely to happen.

Just make them realise that not everyone around them agrees with them, and that perhaps there are simple and obvious things they may have overlooked...and in the quiet of their own night, they can think about that themselves.

People will actively resist while they know they are being pressured - don't pressure them, just "influence" them.

 

[scotth]

I feel that by keeping silent on woo comments for fear of antagonizing people I am somehow condoning what the person is saying. The rational person in me is having a tough time keeping his mouth shut when I hear stuff like that. On the other hand being too blunt with people will perhaps make them shut their mind even tighter, so is speaking out against woo a loosing proposition? Guess it depends on who you talk to.

This is something that Sam Harris addressed very well in an interview with Rational Responders. You can download it from rationalresponders.com. It gives hints on how to get your point across and not come across as 'negative'.

 

[MichelQC]

This is something that Sam Harris addressed very well in an interview with Rational Responders. You can download it from rationalresponders.com. It gives hints on how to get your point across and not come across as 'negative'.

Thanks for the link I will certainly listen to the interview.

 

[MichelQC]

Why is it ok for woos to hold forth with their nonsense while you withhold your rational worldview? I never withhold my point of view in a conversation for the sake of offending someone. People who can't or won't respect my right to a point of view aren't worth having as friends.

Being held hostage by some weird concept of ettiquette just won't fit into my head.

I agree with what you are saying. But at the same time isn't the ultimate goal to help the woo believers to reexamine their beliefs based on the evidence and not their wishful thinking? Maybe with some persons you have to try a different approach and not try to bulldoze them with reasons. I realize that however good my intentions where, my approach could have made me look condescending. Maybe not the right approach to make them open their mind.

 

[Tamazon]

any of you fellow skeptics out there keep quiet about your skepticism because of fear of ostracism from friends and loved ones.

That would be me. I'm not a very great skeptic because even though I'm like most everyone on this forum and know that all the woo is nonsense, I'm the kind of person that worries about what people will think of me and I want them to like me. I wish I could be the kind of person that says , "you can take me or leave me, I don't really care." But alas.

So I usually keep my mouth shut and cringe internally at the silly wooiness. A girl I work with LOVES Sylvia Browne (cringe) and actually saw her show live when she was here. I yearn to tell her my opinions on that harpy, but I have to work with her and she's otherwise a lovely girl.

I was invited to join a Yahoo group with other local mom's in my neighbourhood. Once I voiced my views on psychics however, I wasn't welcomed as warmly anymore. I quit the group.

My family is another matter though, I tell my mom (kinda wooish) EXACTLY why it's all rubbish. She just smiles and carries on.

So to make a long story short, even though I agree with you all here, I 'm sorry that I'm not doing to much to further the cause, other than raising a healthy skeptic in my daughter that is.