Born to Burn

[Mephisto]

I know this has probably been brought up before, but I couldn't find a string on it after some searching.

What I'm pondering is the validity behind the Christian claim that we have free will. I'm centering my thoughts around the story of Adam and Eve.

Now, if we choose to believe the Biblical story of creation, AND buy the idea that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, then how did Adam and Eve possibly have the freedom to choose?

If God knows all even before it happens, then he knew that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit even before he created them. He knew this, yet he still laid the penalty for disobedience so high. Now, if we are supposed to act according to God's will, and God is actually omniscient then isn't anything we do according to God's will?

I can't understand how people can be sold on the idea of original sin if Adam and Eve were only acting according to God's will. Original sin has always seemed to me a method to place someone (anyone) in debt to a God no one has ever seen. The best analogy I can come up with is telling you that my great, great, great, great grandfather once loaned your great, great, great, great grandfather some money and now YOU have to pay ME back. Sounds pretty preposterous, but how many believe the story of Adam and Eve and how many believe they are born with original sin?

The selling of original sin to the masses is to me like the marketing of the "Pet Rock," I wish I'd thought of it first! Even more astounding is the fact that the packaging of a "saviour" costs even less than the Pet Rock (no rocks to buy, no packages to pay for and no shipping costs). Of course the expense of that saviour went up considerably when you add in the holy wars, the crusades, the inquisitions and all the independant acts of holy aggression.

 

[I'll_buy_that]

He did know that they would sin. He put up the tree, then dared them not to eat from it. So really, god likes to play games and tease.

 

[Mephisto]

Seems that way to me too

It does seem that God likes to play silly little games.

The other one that bothers me is "Worship the Almighty."

I've yet had a Christian explain to me why the creator of the entire universe requires that I worship him? If he is indeed the creator of the universe doesn't he know how powerful he is, or does he require the adoration of ants as well?

It's almost as if God is the grossly insecure CEO of a poorly run corporation. I wonder how far God would have gotten if there were a celestial game show like "The Apprentice?" He's almost like George W. Bush, he only got to where he is because everyone knew his father.

 

[toddjh]

My wife used to be a Christian, and had a somewhat interesting take on this (she's now more or less a generic deist, but I have hope for her yet ).

She said that God doesn't know the future. He knows everything that's happening now, and certain things that will unavoidably happen no matter what (she threw that in to justify prophecies, I think), but he isn't sure what choices people are going to make down the line.

Despite its contradictions with mainstream Christianity, that actually solves a lot of problems. Free will is no longer an issue, and prayer actually makes a little bit of sense. Plus, it's probably a bit more interesting for God -- can you imagine how boring it gets after a few billion years of sitting there and watching your clockwork creation tick?

Jeremy

 

[jmercer]

Well... I had posted something about Adam and Eve and God's actions in another thread. Given the context of this thread, it might be worth a discussion.

Genesis... presents several problems for an omnipotent, omniscient and "merciful" deity, doesn't it?

God - who can do anything - creates Adam, and then Eve - in paradise. They're immortal, they're innocent, they're all that and a bag of chips, too. But... this omniscient deity sticks a tree full of forbidden fruit somewhere in this entire paradise. Then he proceeds to show the tree to Adam and Eve... and warns them not to eat of this fruit. Some time later, a serpent talks Eve into eating the forbidden fruit, and then Eve tempts Adam, who likewise eats of it.

A bit later, God goes looking for A&E, and gets them to come out of hiding. He spots their fig leaf; questions them; discovers what's happened, and tosses them all out into the cold, cruel world. He even takes their Immortality Union Cards away.

So.

First off, if God is omnipotent, then He could have easily put the tree somewhere out of reach of A&E. Even better, he could have put a guard on the tree to prevent poachers! (After all, he's got that big 'ol Angel with the flaming sword at the front gate, remember?) Instead, He exposes A&E to temptation, and forbids them from eating this fruit. Yeah. That shows a lot of omniscience - He created A&E, then turned around and showed absolute ignorance of their basic psychology.

Further, His omniscience seemed to have waned even further when it didn't warn him about the serpent's plans... or Eve's danger of being tempted and succumbing to it... or Eve's later seduction of Adam. In fact, God seems to have lost track of A&E entirely, doesn't even know what's going on in his own Garden of Eden (so much for omnipresence as well!) and has to go searching for them after the dirty deed is done!

So much for omniscience... back to omnipotence. Forget about hiding the tree, or guarding it. If God knew that the serpent as trouble, why didn't He keep him out of Eden in the first place?

So, perhaps God isn't omniscient or omnipotent, hmm?? Or perhaps He's simply incompetent?

Alternatively, perhaps God is omnpotent and omniscient. In that case... then God deliberately placed the tree where it could be found; deliberately introduced A&E to the forbidden fruit; deliberately left the tree unguarded; deliberately let the serpent have free access to Eve; deliberately permitted Eve to fall to temptation; ignored the situation when Adam was seduced into eating the fruit by Eve; pretended ignorance when trying to find A&E, and also with the initial questioning; then booted A&E out the door like so much refuse.

Well, this paints a pretty ugly picture of God. He takes two innocents and puts them in a position where He knows they'll be corrupted. He lies to them about knowing where they are, and what they've done... and then he kicks them out and condemns them - and all their kids - to death.

And what does he do to the serpent? Sends him out AFTER A&E, and declares them mortal enemies. THAT'S the serpent's punishment? Go out there and screw with mankind? Heh.

So, no matter how you look at it, Genesis is not kind to God.

 

[Richard G]

If God knows all even before it happens, then he knew that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit even before he created them.

And he also knew he would have to die to reconcile them to himself. His love was so great, he made them anyway.

 

[toddjh]

And he also knew he would have to die to reconcile them to himself. His love was so great, he made them anyway.

I love the bizarre mental gymnastics that people inflict on themselves to try to make their mythology consistent...

Jeremy

 

[jmercer]

And he also knew he would have to die to reconcile them to himself. His love was so great, he made them anyway.

Uh... so, exactly how many generations of people suffered during life and were sent to hell for all eternity before Jesus died on the cross? And subsequently, how many centuries passed before everyone on earth had the opportunity to learn of Jesus, accept him, and be saved? (Because those that didn't hear about him in time are in hell, too, right?)

Love doesn't seem like an appropriate term...

 

[I'll_buy_that]

Don't forget the danger of tossing these two out to be eaten by T-Rex


Man Walked with Dinosaurs

Adam eaten?

 

[Mephisto]

And he also knew he would have to die to reconcile them to himself. His love was so great, he made them anyway.

Well, if his love was so great, why didn't he just spare them the inconvenience of allowing them to believe they had a choice, and why didn't he spare the passing on of this "sin" to future generations?

Besides, I can't see how or why we should consider the death of Jesus as a sacrifice anyway, he was only playing according to the rules he (or his father) concocted. Was it all a trick to put us in his debt?

 

[toddjh]

Besides, I can't see how or why we should consider the death of Jesus as a sacrifice anyway

You know, this has always bothered me about Christianity. Sure, Jesus has a few hours of (admittedly very horrible) pain, but then he moves on to an eternity of bliss. Hell, where can I sign up for that??

I always thought the Jesus myth would play better if he went to hell permanently as part of the sacrifice. Just imagine how much more powerful the guilt trip could be!

Jeremy

 

[jmercer]

You know, this has always bothered me about Christianity. Sure, Jesus has a few hours of (admittedly very horrible) pain, but then he moves on to an eternity of bliss. Hell, where can I sign up for that??

I always thought the Jesus myth would play better if he went to hell permanently as part of the sacrifice. Just imagine how much more powerful the guilt trip could be!

Jeremy

Jesus was Jewish, and you have to understand what Judaic holocausts were all about - they were sacrifices for forgiveness from God. (Much like other religions had sacrifices to placate their deities.) The better the sacrifice, the more favor you found with God.

According to the logic, God decided that it was impossible for mankind to find the perfect and unblemished (by sin) sacrifice, so He came down, was incarnated, and offered himself up as the perfect sacrifice. The amount of suffering and time involved wasn't the issue - it was the perfection of the sacrifice.

 

[Gulliamo]

Jesus was Jewish, and you have to understand what Judaic holocausts were all about - they were sacrifices for forgiveness from God. (Much like other religions had sacrifices to placate their deities.) The better the sacrifice, the more favor you found with God.

According to the logic, God decided that it was impossible for mankind to find the perfect and unblemished (by sin) sacrifice, so He came down, was incarnated, and offered himself up as the perfect sacrifice. The amount of suffering and time involved wasn't the issue - it was the perfection of the sacrifice.

That, and Jews do not believe in hell.

 

[jmercer]

That, and Jews do not believe in hell.

Actually, that's a matter of debate.

 

[Gulliamo]

Actually, that's a matter of debate.

I should say, "Many Jews do not believe in hell." However, I will get some clarification during the passover meal this weekend.

 

[jmercer]

I should say, "Many Jews do not believe in hell." However, I will get some clarification during the passover meal this weekend.

Fair enough - my mother and her family are a good example of that, in fact. Have a good Seder.

 

[Kaylee]

I should say, "Many Jews do not believe in hell." However, I will get some clarification during the passover meal this weekend.

Fair enough - my mother and her family are a good example of that, in fact. Have a good Seder.

Judaism doesn't have a consensus on this --
http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Also, I think my post would be really incomplete if I didn't add on that Judaism doesn't focus on the afterlife, it's emphasis is about how to live and make things better in this life.

(I grew up in an Orthodox Jewish family and am a Reconstructionist Jew now.)

Have a good Seder everyone.


P.S.

Jesus was Jewish, and you have to understand what Judaic holocausts were all about - they were sacrifices for forgiveness from God. (Much like other religions had sacrifices to placate their deities.) The better the sacrifice, the more favor you found with God.

I went to an Orthodox Jewish high school and that summary didn't quit agree with the info I recall being indoctrinated with at the time. It was always drilled into me that Judaism is and was an action oriented religion (both before the destruction of the temple (when there were sacrifices) and after the destruction of the temple (when the sacrifices stopped) -- what mattered most is what you do 24/7 -- and that daily actions and how one treated other people were more important than sacrifices then and prayers now.

IIRC what I was told in high school, at the time I think the holidays were an occasion to unify the country in the days before mass communication (everyone who could went to the capital city then). The sacrifices made at the temple were a large part of how the priests were supported. I was left with the impression that sacrifices for the Hebrews at the time was sort of like our opinion about presents now -- it was the thought that counted.

But {Shrug} I was born almost deaf and my hearing aids weren't worth two cents at the time. I hardly heard anything that any of my teachers said --- and the little bit I did hear was often misheard so.... obviously my recollection could be inaccurate.

Edited because I can't write today.

 

[Iacchus]

Now, if we choose to believe the Biblical story of creation, AND buy the idea that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, then how did Adam and Eve possibly have the freedom to choose?

Compatiblism.

 

[c4ts]

That, and Jews do not believe in hell.

There is a Jewish hell, but I don't know if they all believe in it. My guess would be it's only the Orthodox and Conservative sects.

 

[Gulliamo]

(I grew up in an Orthodox Jewish family and am a Reconstructionist Jew now.)[/i]

Reconstructionist?