Born Agains and the OT??

[canadarocks]

In my recent discussions with some born-again christians, I noted that their discussion is essentially focused on the NT with the teaching of Jesus. The OT is given little, if any, thought in their discussions. Is this an artifact of the people I deal with or is this a more wide-spread phenomenon where born-agains de-emphasis the OT? Have others found this to be the case.

Does belief in the NT require belief in the OT or can the NT stand alone without the OT?

I'm hoping for more discussion than my last thread generated.....

 

[Zep]

I would suspect that someone has woken up to the fact that the OT is full of some of the silliest inconsistencies and contradictions of modern religious creeds, and they are quietly "phasing it out". The emphasis would be more on the life, times and teachings of Jesus.

You might note, however, that the majority of the NT is attributed to Paul, who was, by all acounts, a grumpy, narrow-minded, halucinating misogynist who thought he knew Jesus better than Jesus did.

Perhaps these peoples' thinking might be different if they limited their biblical references to just the first 5 books of the NT, reputedly written by Jesus's contemporaries. Although these, too, are chock-full of inconsistencies and contradictions...

 

[Yahweh]

I've heard some Christians say "blah blah doesnt matter, that was the Old Testament" (in that case, the 10 commandments have no bearing). Some Christians have a habit of selectively picking and choosing which parts of the Old Testament and New Testament to believe and follow. They are all for the 10 commandments, resurrection, flood myths, and Heaven... They wouldnt kill their family members if they believed differently (Old Testament, Deuteronomy 17:2-7... I would be glad Christians dont take that part of the bible too seriously), they dont view women as inferior or servants to man (New Testament, Colossians 3:18).

However, some total idiots believe the physically and mentally handicapped have been punished for being such bad sinners (I dont know of any verse which says that, however New Testament, Luke 5:14 may be interpreted in that way) or homosexuals should be killed (one of the 100s of such verses are New Testament, Romans 1:31-32).

I'm hoping for more discussion than my last thread generated.....

You get lots of responses when a thread is derailed or someone begins a chain of puns.

In the mean time, I saw a special about Quantum Mechanics on PBS the other day, it was really cool.

 

[canadarocks]

However, some total idiots believe the physically and mentally handicapped have been punished for being such bad sinners (I dont know of any verse which says that, however New Testament, Luke 5:14 may be interpreted in that way) or homosexuals should be killed (one of the 100s of such verses are New Testament, Romans 1:31-32).

I've had the experience where a person told my wife that our infant son died because God was punishing us for something bad that we did!! This really upset my wife (Catholic) and me (agnostic/athiest) on several levels. If there is a God (and I'm leaning toward no-God required), then what sense does this punishment make?? It didn't convert me or split me and my wife up? I think that the person who told us this is a complete idiot and have resolved to ignore her.


BTW, my son (11) watched the entire PBS special on Quantum Mechanics and was mesmorized! I just think "Cool!!"

 

[Flaherty]

Jesus says the OT still applies:

Mt 5:18-19: "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."

No, wait, now he says it doesn't:

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached."

No wonder Christians can't get their act together.

 

[triadboy]

Does belief in the NT require belief in the OT or can the NT stand alone without the OT?

Zep is correct. I immediately corner Xians in the OT and they are lost. They can't escape the stupidity. The NT, however, is a different level of ignorance.

The church fathers used the OT to lead into the NT. By rearranging the Jewish writings to suit their chronology and identifying 'Prophesy' in the OT of NT events (akin to pulling rabbits out of their asses) - the church fathers forever linked the two

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

I say fundies LOVE the Old Testament. However, they do tend to fixate on a handful of areas like Genesis (Creationism and nuking Sodom), Deuteronomy (More on homos), Psalms (The fool in his heart saying no God) and Daniel (praying for Armageddon).

They couldn't tell you a word of Amos or Nahum however.

 

[Johnny Pneumatic]

They ignore Lev.(don't let your kids read it!)

 

[TruthSeeker]

I've had the experience where a person told my wife that our infant son died because God was punishing us for something bad that we did!! This really upset my wife (Catholic) and me (agnostic/athiest) on several levels. If there is a God (and I'm leaning toward no-God required), then what sense does this punishment make?? It didn't convert me or split me and my wife up? I think that the person who told us this is a complete idiot and have resolved to ignore her.

I'm terribly sorry you were told this. It is horrible and you are right to remove this person from your life.

I am sorry for your loss.

 

[espritch]

I've had the experience where a person told my wife that our infant son died because God was punishing us for something bad that we did!!

So her idea of showing Christian love was to tell you the death of your child was your fault. You know, this kind of crap is why I gave up Christianity.

 

[NightG1]

Yahweh is correct - at least as far as my personal experience as a former fundamentalist goes. Very few of them will actually ever read the bible as a narrative "from cover-to-cover". Most will simply focus on the interpretations they hear of the carefully selected parables they have read in bible study. If you look at their bibles, many of them have color-coded tabs glued to the pages they like for easy access to comforting passages. These interpretations are used to reinforce the very narrow worldview that is acceptible to church leadership. Can't have a bunch of neophytes going off all half-cocked and reading the forbidden nasty bits. That might cause a breech of faith or worse - rational thought - to creep into the skulls of the easily led. The very first thing I did that caused my eventual rejection of xtianity was reading the bible - page by page.

 

[Teh Wiccan]

As long as they don't go really radical like Fred Phelps or say something discriminitory with basis on verses like Exodus 22:18 ("Thou Shalt not suffer a witch to live") then I'm fine with it. Just none of that cramming Jesus down my throat with that bible stuff.

 

[Zep]

I've had the experience where a person told my wife that our infant son died because God was punishing us for something bad that we did!! This really upset my wife (Catholic) and me (agnostic/athiest) on several levels. If there is a God (and I'm leaning toward no-God required), then what sense does this punishment make?? It didn't convert me or split me and my wife up? I think that the person who told us this is a complete idiot and have resolved to ignore her.

This person deserves to be shunned by you, her family, her "church," her community, everyone. She owes you and your family a debt of apology that could never be repaid. To say "How DARE she!" does not convey my extreme anger enough.

And to say "I'm so very sorry your child died" does not convey my own sympathy deeply enough.

 

[Zep]

Back on track...

The Skeptics Annotated Bible is a handy-dandy little reference for this sort of thing. Go crazy!

 

[ReasonableDoubt]

Re: Re: Born Agains and the OT??

By rearranging the Jewish writings to suit their chronology ...

Can you give an example of rearranging the chronology of the Tanach?

 

[Jabberwock]

I've had the experience where a person told my wife that our infant son died because God was punishing us for something bad that we did!! This really upset my wife (Catholic) and me (agnostic/athiest) on several levels.

I saw something like this happen. I was at a new teacher orientation for the school district, and we were discussing why we had chosen to teach in Norfolk. One of my collegues mentioned that she and her boyfriend had moved to Norfolk to get away from the memories they had in Oregon of a son who had died of SIDS. We were all offering apologies and commiserating when one of the other new teachers (a SCIENCE teacher) stood up and told this woman, "God took your your son because you were living in sin and because he was illigitimate, I'm sure he's in Hell paying for your sin." After that, she turned and left. We all sat there stunned! My collegue was crying and we were all sitting there shocked at this woman's narrow mindedness and blatant rudeness. Later, I noticed the district rep talking to his supervisor and we never saw the rude woman again. I don't know if she was quietly told that her services were not required anymore or if she was just asked to leave the orientation. I shudder to think of her teaching science anywhere! I know a quite a few Science teachers who are devout Christians; and while they believe in Intelligent Design, they are professional enough to put there personal feelings aside in order to do their job.

BTW I also saw the Quantum special, it was fascinating, but I fear he lost me when he discussed membranes and multiple dimensions (I teach English )

 

[triadboy]

Re: Re: Re: Born Agains and the OT??

Can you give an example of rearranging the chronology of the Tanach?

The Jewish writings are:

The 5 books of Moses (Chumash)
The 8 books of the Prophets (Neviim)
The 11 books of the Writings (Kesuvim)


The xian OT arranges these books to suit their purposes. The OT ends with Malachi - which seems to naturally predict the coming of John the Baptist. Malachi is in the minor prophet section.

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD

Matthew 3:1
In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

 

[Tony]

The way that I began my journey out of (quasi) Christianity was to try to read the bible all the way through. Once I realized the BS and inconsistencies contained therein, I know something was mad fishy.

In Sunday school, you never actually read the Bible. You just memorize selected verses, and hear select stories.

 

[Tony]

I saw something like this happen. I was at a new teacher orientation for the school district, and we were discussing why we had chosen to teach in Norfolk. One of my collegues mentioned that she and her boyfriend had moved to Norfolk to get away from the memories they had in Oregon of a son who had died of SIDS. We were all offering apologies and commiserating when one of the other new teachers (a SCIENCE teacher) stood up and told this woman, "God took your your son because you were living in sin and because he was illigitimate, I'm sure he's in Hell paying for your sin." After that, she turned and left. We all sat there stunned! My collegue was crying and we were all sitting there shocked at this woman's narrow mindedness and blatant rudeness. Later, I noticed the district rep talking to his supervisor and we never saw the rude woman again. I don't know if she was quietly told that her services were not required anymore or if she was just asked to leave the orientation. I shudder to think of her teaching science anywhere! I know a quite a few Science teachers who are devout Christians; and while they believe in Intelligent Design, they are professional enough to put there personal feelings aside in order to do their job.

Did you say anything to the woman?

 

[Jabberwock]

Did you say anything to the woman?

No, I didn't, The woman left right after she dropped this bomb, I was too stunned that she had said something like that and I was more concerned about my friend. Of course, a half hour later I had thought of all sorts of witty rejoinders.