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Birds in outer space

Abdul Alhazred

Philosopher
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
Messages
6,023
I mean flying around inside a space station.

The sensation of free fall itself would not cause a bird to panic. But when it flapped its wings it would still be in free fall though moving around in the space station. This would disorient the bird.

A bird moves in air by flapping its wings, but the physics of the thing require gravity. If the bird in the space station thinks of itself as falling and reacted accordingly, it would move in a direction ~ at right angles to what it expected.

This would be because the air is also in free fall.

Would it be possible for the bird to adapt and learn to fly where it pleased, or would it just keep flopping around in panic?
 
Abdul Alhazred said:
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Would it be possible for the bird to adapt and learn to fly where it pleased, or would it just keep flopping around in panic?

I would think it would learn to adapt, though its wings aren't well suited to zero-G flying, so it probably wouldn't be a graceful flyer. But birds aren't born knowing how to fly, just like people aren't born knowing how to walk - if you can learn it one way once, you can learn it another way, though perhaps never as well or as easily as the first time. A bird in zero G probably would flop around in panic for a while, but I think it would learn eventually.
 
Parakeet owner checking in...

The trouble is, when a bird flops around in panic, it frequently injures itself, sometimes quite severely, with broken feathers or even broken wings. And a bird with a broken wing is at risk for shock, which they can die of, too--just "shock". And a bird experiencing such an intense panic event that it gives itself two broken wings--well, that's very bad news, and if the bird survives it, you're amazed. (People go into shock when they get broken bones, too.) And if the bird with two already-broken wings won't stop flopping madly around its cage--well, it's basically toast.

And even if they don't break anything, they have such fast metabolisms that they can literally wear themselves out and die of exhaustion and dehydration, if they're *always* in a state of panic. So, you want to prevent your caged bird from panicking and flopping around its cage. However, such terrestrial "panic events" tend to be limited. You remove the stimulus that sent the bird into fits (a strange cat, a loud noise, a sudden bright light), and the bird stops panicking.

But I would think that a bird suddenly thrust into zero G, from which effects there would be no escape or respite, would be so totally freaked out that he would die of it, either from exhaustion or by damaging himself badly.

And unlike humans, he wouldn't be able to understand that the reason it felt like he was continually falling was because the thingies in his semi-circular canals were floating free. No, I think he would just flop helplessly around his cage until he died.

I would surmise that this is why, as far as I can tell, they have never sent any birds up. I mean, talk about your potential PR disaster--people love birds, much more than they love the rats that normally go up in the shuttle, and the media fallout from a "sweet little birdie" beating itself to death in its cage within the first hour of the shuttle's flight would be unbelieveable. They might as well have Sean O'Keefe stand out in front of NASA headquarters and blow a parrot's brain out with a .45, live, on camera.

And even if they're not *sure* that this is what would happen to a bird in space, I'm guessing that nobody wants to be the one to take the chance of authorizing it and then having to deal with a possible media disaster.

And...even astronauts, who are professionals and who do this for a living, have trouble with weightlessness.
http://spaceboy.nasda.go.jp/note/yujin/e/yuj107_body_e.html

You could try to strap the bird's wings down and hope that he became acclimated in a few days, but I don't think he would ever get over the sense of "wrongness", and I think as soon as you took the restraints off, and he was free to flap his wings, whether he had room to actually fly or not, he would be overcome by panic once again, when he found that he couldn't fly normally, and you'd have to put the restraints back on, and you'd be back to Square One. All you would have established would be that a bird could be safely transported into space, but not whether it would be able to fly once it got there.

And if you did manage to get a bird acclimated to zero G, so that you could take the restraints off and it wouldn't panic, still you wouldn't want a bird flying free in the shuttle or the ISS anyway, while it figured out how to fly. So you'd have to take some sort of flight cage. A small bird like a zebra finch needs a cage that's at least 3 feet long, in order to be able to actually "fly", as opposed to "wing-assisted hopping around the cage". And my understanding was that space was limited on board the shuttles. They might not want to allot space on the shuttle for a big empty cage for a bird to use to learn to fly in zero G--if it doesn't die first.
 
I think the greatest risk for injury to a non-accostumed bird would be speed. When taking to the air, most birds make a quite impressive jump, then start flapping their wings to generate lift. In zero G, that would send them towards the opposite wall at considerable speed.

Perhaps birds hatched in space could manage, but, a little counterintuitively, birds are probably the kind of creature worst equipped for free fall; their entire physique is built around overcoming gravity, and that is suddenly redundant.

Hans
 
I think moving in Zero-G is closer to swimming than to flying. Well, fish can´t breathe air, but perhaps some amphibious animals or reptiles/mammals that swim a lot might be able to get accustomed.
 
Goshawk said:
Parakeet owner checking in...
And even if they don't break anything, they have such fast metabolisms that they can literally wear themselves out and die of exhaustion and dehydration, if they're *always* in a state of panic.

Interesting. I'm thinking of a bird in a large open space, not a cage. Though the space station itself might be thought of as a very large cage unless we're talking super science fiction large.

Does the bird break its wings smacking against the side of the cage or just by thrashing about?

The exhaustion thing is another matter, but I'm not convinced the bird would panic, only that it would be confused for a while.

I have a grasp on the physics, and on that basis now think that a bird in principle could navigate in microgravity.

But my grasp of bird psychology is zero.

Would it make a difference what kind of bird? Perhaps your parakeets would die but maybe pigeons or owls would be OK?

Or eagles. I like the idea of eagles on a space station provided they would be OK. They wouldn't soar, of course.
 
What if they sent up eggs which hatched in a micro gravity environment? would the first generation of space birds be able to fly?

As a side note: bird droppings could most likely be the reason our featherd friends have not gotten a 6g launch into their worst nightmare.IMHO
 
Birds have had millions of years of evolutionary fine-tuning to lock them into "flying" as a lifestyle. It's not really a conscious choice for them--if they're awake, and healthy, and not restrained in some way, as by straps or by having their wings clipped, "flying" is what they're primed to do at the drop of a hat. It's how they deal with danger and evade predators. "Oh no, I'm falling!" translates into "danger", and the hard-wired bird response to "danger" is "fly away".

The only kind of bird I can think of that might not beat itself to death in panic the first time it tried to fly in zero G would be a chicken. Chickens can fly, but they don't fly that much, or that well, as they've been selected against flying by many generations of chicken farmers who preferred that their livestock stay put in the chicken yard.

Or possibly a kea, the flightless New Zealand parrot. But then you'd still never know whether birds could fly in zero G.

A bird experiencing a panic event in a cage flies back and forth from perch to perch frantically, wings flapping wildly. If the impetus for the panic event is not removed, eventually he gets tired and starts to lose control, and starts missing the perches and starts crashing into the walls. This is where you get broken feathers and broken wings. Since the wings stick out, they're at risk, rather than the "body" as such. However, the head is at risk, too, since if the bird is panicked enough, he may crash headfirst right into the cage wall.

You really can't have loose birds in a space station or shuttle, where every knob, button, dial, and readout may be essential to basic survival, and a malfunction of a piece of equipment, due to a bird's crashing into it, or pooping on it, or chewing on it (parrots will chew anything) could be fatal to everyone on board.

Also, besides the "poop" problem, there's the "shedding" problem. Birds are constantly shedding tiny down feathers and dander, and those cute soft puffy teeny feathers, and those copious amounts of dander, even with a truly righteous air cleaner system installed, would eventually work their way into the equipment, with possibly disastrous results. How much "crud" in its hard drive can your computer handle without failing and losing all your game scores? What if your computer was handling life support for you 120 miles above the surface of the Earth? I don't think I'd want to take even the slightest risk of having down feathers and birdie dust in my life support computer...

What if they sent up eggs which hatched in a micro gravity environment? would the first generation of space birds be able to fly?
Birds are hard-wired to learn to fly the way human infants are hard-wired to learn to walk upright. However, in both cases, it takes practice. Juvenile birds sit on the edge of the nest and flap their wings, building up the wing muscles, the way human toddlers toddle around and build up their walking muscles.

You could probably hatch out a bird that could learn to fly in space. If all he knew was a zero G environment, I think he'd adapt his flying techniques to the environment.

But he could never go back to Earth. Everything he'd learned about flying in zero G would be totally inapplicable to a 1 G environment.
 
Goshawk,
I would surmise that this is why, as far as I can tell, they have never sent any birds up. I mean, talk about your potential PR disaster--people love birds, much more than they love the rats that normally go up in the shuttle, and the media fallout from a "sweet little birdie" beating itself to death in its cage within the first hour of the shuttle's flight would be unbelieveable. They might as well have Sean O'Keefe stand out in front of NASA headquarters and blow a parrot's brain out with a .45, live, on camera.

That'll be one keyboard you owe me.
The image of Mr O'Keefe standing in front of reporters " We had initially planned to evaluate the effects of attempted free fall flight on birds this mission, on the advice of our research people we instead give you this." BLAM.:D


Boo

(back to your regularly scheduled thread)
 
Goshawk said:
The only kind of bird I can think of that might not beat itself to death in panic the first time it tried to fly in zero G would be a chicken. Chickens can fly, but they don't fly that much, or that well, as they've been selected against flying by many generations of chicken farmers who preferred that their livestock stay put in the chicken yard.

And a darn good thing. Assuming we can figure out a way to fry them in zero gravity, we can raise and fry chickens to the stars.

Hamburgers, frankfurters, and French fries will all be things of the long forgotten Earth, known only to historians. But we will still be eating fried chicken. :p
 
Don't birds need gravity to swallow? Seems like that's might be why they haven't sent any up for experiments.
 
Chaos said:
I think moving in Zero-G is closer to swimming than to flying. Well, fish can´t breathe air, but perhaps some amphibious animals or reptiles/mammals that swim a lot might be able to get accustomed.
Space penguins.
 
How about flying insects of some sort - moths or something. People don't seem all that concerned for their overall welfare, from what I've seen on many windshields and radiators.

did
 
BobK said:
Don't birds need gravity to swallow? Seems like that's might be why they haven't sent any up for experiments.
Yes, I think you're probably right. Birds need to dip their beaks into an open container of water and then tip their heads back so the water runs down their throat. It would be difficult to manage an open container of water in zero G.

However, psittacines can be taught to drink out of a Lixit/valve-type water bottle, more commonly used for rodents. (I believe they sent Lixit-type water bottles up with the rat experiments, so we know they work in zero G.) Parrots have muscular and agile tongues, as well as the ingrained behavior to hang upside down and nibble at things, so they can learn to use this type of water dispenser.

My parakeet drinks out of a hamster water bottle suspended from the side of his cage, the kind with a ball bearing at the bottom of a metal tube. He leans over sideways on his perch and nibbles at the ball bearing and drops of water fall out.

So anyway, if you were going to experiment with birds in space, psittacines would be the way to go, and since big parrots are expensive, you'd be limited to parakeets (budgies), cockatiels, or possibly Quaker (monk) parakeets, which actually being a feral pest in an increasing number of states might not be such a bad choice, PR-wise. I know a number of people who would gladly write checks to NASA if they read a news article about a "Tragic ending to the 'birds in space' shuttle experiment" if it involved a Quaker. You'd have people down here rooting for a suitless EVA for the bird...
 
Goshawk said:
So anyway, if you were going to experiment with birds in space, psittacines would be the way to go, and since big parrots are expensive...

Expensive compared to other parrots, not expensive at all compared to the expense of putting them in space.

Provided they can live in a space station without hurting themselves, the main issue is whether they can perch on someone's shoulder in free fall.

Arrrrgh!

I do fancy the notion of a budgerigar "tank" somewhere in a large space station, though.
 
A bird moves in air by flapping its wings, but the physics of the thing require gravity.
I don't think this is accurate. Visit a large aquarium sometime (Seattle's harbor aquarium for example) and check out the areas with diving birds. The birds move under water by pushing the water backwards with their wings - it looks like flying in slow motion. It looks just like the movements that sea turtles use with their flippers for swimming. Many of these diving birds are migratory and can fly for thousands of miles. I suspect that sea birds at least would certainly be adaptable enough to deal with zero G.

Puffins in Space. Interplanetary Kittiwakes.
 
I believe the bird's wings would be more used like a penguin's flippers.
 
Re: Re: Birds in outer space

T'ai Chi said:
I believe the bird's wings would be more used like a penguin's flippers.

Interesting point. Ducks and swans swim and fly, but penguins fly in water.
:D
 

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