Bikram Yoga

[23_Tauri]

I practise Bikram yoga, I mean a lot of Bikram yoga, and have done so for over three years now. I do it because makes my muscles stronger, makes me more flexible, gives me a great body (even though I say it myself ) and, like much cardio-vascular exercise, it makes me feel great afterwards. Even if these are the only benefits I got from this yoga, I would still keep doing it every day. I haven’t felt this good in years. I should add for those of you not acquainted with Bikram’s style, it’s practised in a room slightly hotter than the firey depths of hell and super humid to boot, making the heart and lungs work hard.

My issue with Bikram and his yoga is that he appears to claim that it both cures and prevents disease. Indeed, I was told that he has even stated “this yoga can cure all disease” but I can’t confirm this. Although there are testimonies out there from people who say it’s cured them of everything from tinnitus to cancer, there appears to be no scientific proof of the healing powers of doing yoga in an insanely hot room.

http://www.bikramyoga.com/BikramYoga/testimonials.php

Not only that, I hear a lot of woo from my teachers and other practitioners, as yoga tends to be the sort of thing that attracts woo-woos. I hear that am “getting rid of waste toxins and free radicals” through sweating and breathing, that my balance might be a bit off today because it’s a full moon and that I’m opening up my heart chakra in camel pose. Don’t get me wrong, I have a great respect for my teachers as teachers of yoga but I really struggle with the whole gamut of woo-ness that gets thrown in at no extra cost.

My questions are:
Does anyone else here practise Bikram yoga? (just to make me feel at home)
Is there any science to indicate that yoga can cure or prevent disease?
How dodgy is the ground on which Bikram Choudhury walks if he really has publically stated that his yoga can cure disease?
Do free-radicals really get expelled through sweat and breath?
Do I retain any credibility as a developing sceptic in the eyes of Randi forumites whilst still practising yoga on a daily basis or have I just lost multiple scepti-points here?
What do I do about the woo? Do I just keep ignoring it and rolling my eyes periodically as I have done up to now?

I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

 

[Stray Cat]

I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Are you also claiming that Yoga allows you to read minds?

PS: Obviously Yoga doesn't cure tinitus...

 

[23_Tauri]

Are you also claiming that Yoga allows you to read minds?

PS: Obviously Yoga doesn't cure tinitus...

Ah ha ha ha, no indeed! A case in point there, Mr Cat. When I started doing Bikram I had never had tinnitus, but do I go around saying "Bikram yoga gave me tinnitus"? No I don't, because I don't mix up correlation with cause and effect. But people seem to do this, when it backs up their preconceived notions of that they hope and expect.

 

[Naddig74]

I've always taken it as read that fit body is a healthy body, so insofar as it improves your physical fitness it prevents illness. I wouldn't give any credence to the idea that it will cure and already extant illness such as cancer though. Especially not cancer.

 

[Unlike a Bull]

My questions are:
Does anyone else here practise Bikram yoga? (just to make me feel at home)
Is there any science to indicate that yoga can cure or prevent disease?
How dodgy is the ground on which Bikram Choudhury walks if he really has publically stated that his yoga can cure disease?
Do free-radicals really get expelled through sweat and breath?
Do I retain any credibility as a developing sceptic in the eyes of Randi forumites whilst still practising yoga on a daily basis or have I just lost multiple scepti-points here?
What do I do about the woo? Do I just keep ignoring it and rolling my eyes periodically as I have done up to now?

I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Medicine isn't really my thing, so my answers are just speculative. Not a doctor, grain of salt, etc.

1. I don't practice any form of yoga, but I don't necessarily consider it woo, depending on the claims made. Bikram is definitely woo.

2. I guess it depends on your definition of disease. I don't think it's going to cure a disease caused by a virus or bacteria nor a genetic disease. I think it could cure alcoholism, depression, or even hypertension, depending on the severity and cause of any of them.

3. Bikram Choudhury doesn’t seem to be on any shakier ground than homeopaths or chiros or snake oil salesmen. For some reason it seems to be really hard to hold these people accountable for the harm they cause people, and also really hard to convince followers they’re being fleeced.

4. I have no idea. Sorry.

5. I don’t think I really qualify as a Randi forumite. I do a whole lot more lurking than posting. But, in my opinion, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with yoga, per se. I think the claims that are made about curing any disease are what drive it headfirst into the woo category. I can appreciate yoga as a form of stretching/exercise. The problem is that people who have a serious disease that need medical attention may postpone or even outright refuse treatment believing that their yoga is going to cure them. There is a potential to do great harm here.

6. If I were in your shoes I would definitely try to find a yoga teacher who laid off the woo stuff. I would feel like I was supporting a business that lies and has a potential for hurting people.

Are you also claiming that Yoga allows you to read minds?

PS: Obviously Yoga doesn't cure tinitus...

I’m not so sure. I think tinnitus can be caused by high blood pressure. I can see the exercising of yoga coupled with the stress relief it can offer being beneficial. I don’t know if it actually can, but I wouldn’t dismiss it outright.

 

[23_Tauri]

Thank you for your comments, UnlikeaBull

1. I don't practice any form of yoga, but I don't necessarily consider it woo, depending on the claims made. Bikram is definitely woo.

Why do you consider Bikram more woo and other types of yoga? Is it because of the claims made by Bikram, or because, unlike other forms of yoga, it is practised in a hot, steamy room? If the former then it is not the yoga that is woo, but the claims of the man.

But, in my opinion, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with yoga, per se. I think the claims that are made about curing any disease are what drive it headfirst into the woo category. I can appreciate yoga as a form of stretching/exercise. The problem is that people who have a serious disease that need medical attention may postpone or even outright refuse treatment believing that their yoga is going to cure them. There is a potential to do great harm here.

This is my view too. My experience is that Bikram yoga is great exercise and surely that in itself is enough of an commendation. Why embellish with unsubstantiated claims about curing serious diseases? As with homeopaths and chiropracters, the danger comes if sick people forego proper medical treatment because they think their yoga/sugar pills/bone manipulator can cure them.

 

[Unlike a Bull]

Why do you consider Bikram more woo and other types of yoga? Is it because of the claims made by Bikram, or because, unlike other forms of yoga, it is practised in a hot, steamy room? If the former then it is not the yoga that is woo, but the claims of the man.

I consider it woo because of the claims made by Bikram. Maybe I'm conflating the issues, but I consider the claims of Bikram to be tied to Bikram yoga. Is homeopathy woo or just the claims made by homeopaths? There's benefits to doing yoga/drinking water, but when you claim that your special way of doing yoga/drinking water has some special ability to cure people without having any evidence that it does, I consider your "special way" woo.

ETA: To clarify, I meant the impersonal you, not you, Tauri.

 

[23_Tauri]

I consider it woo because of the claims made by Bikram. Maybe I'm conflating the issues, but I consider the claims of Bikram to be tied to Bikram yoga. Is homeopathy woo or just the claims made by homeopaths? There's benefits to doing yoga/drinking water, but when you claim that your special way of doing yoga/drinking water has some special ability to cure people without having any evidence that it does, I consider your "special way" woo. .

Hello.

I have found Bikram more beneficial to other forms of yoga because of its strongly cardio-vascular component, which results from the heat and the pace of the class. There are other fairly energetic forms of yoga, such as astanga, but personally I’ve never found any yoga quite as intense as Bikram, which is why I conclude it can get you fitter, faster. The comparison with homeopathy only goes so far, because drinking water in minute amounts doesn’t do anything for dehydration, whilst Bikram yoga has the beneficial health effects of increased fitness, better flexibility, muscle strength and posture. Clearly, these effects can be positive for certain conditions, such as obesity or back pain caused by weak muscles/bad posture. Therefore, I conclude that the practise itself is not woo.

But, if Bikram or anyone else were to claim that this yoga can cure serious diseases such as cancer then it stands to reason that that would indeed be “special way” woo, and also completely pointless.

 

[Naddig74]

If fit-fast is what you want I recommend Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. It's the hardest workout I've ever experienced, and I like to push hard. It's also entirely woo free.

 

[Arouet]

First post here (hey everyone!)

At my gym they just call it hot yoga and the instructor has never mentioned any healing properties. Maybe its not strict brikham that we're doing, but who cares; I find that the heat really helps me do the poses, loosening up my body. Yoga is beneficial for you whether or not it can cure disease: strength, flexibility, relaxation, all of those are enough to do any kind of yoga, IMO.

So forget about the woo aspects and enjoy your class!

 

[sadhatter]

Do what i do with martial arts op, use it yourself, and don't promote it, if you find it gives you a benefit then your still getting the benefit, but not opening up friends or family who may be more susceptible to woo to it.

When asked refer to it as something generic, in my case i use the general term " martial arts" when discussing it with people i don't know too well, because i feel like a tool stating ju-jitsu, when ( possibly not everywhere, but 100% in my area) the majority of places that are around now that teach come with a free large order of woo. I wouldn't want to be responsible for sending someone down the road of throwing chi and dim mok.

 

[Naddig74]

Do what i do with martial arts op, use it yourself, and don't promote it, if you find it gives you a benefit then your still getting the benefit, but not opening up friends or family who may be more susceptible to woo to it.

When asked refer to it as something generic, in my case i use the general term " martial arts" when discussing it with people i don't know too well, because i feel like a tool stating ju-jitsu, when ( possibly not everywhere, but 100% in my area) the majority of places that are around now that teach come with a free large order of woo. I wouldn't want to be responsible for sending someone down the road of throwing chi and dim mok.

IMO any martial art which has to resort to woo to demonstrate it's effectiveness must be lacking something...

A friend of mine went for a while to train Tai Chi with another friend of ours who was learning from a guy who did the chi throwing nonsense. He demonstrated it on his number one student a couple of times, doing moves very like the Ken/Ryu Ha-do-ken fireball from Street Fighter (can't think of any other way to describe it sorry ) and number one student obligingly fell over.

My friend said, 'ok, sifu, try it on me.' Of course it didn't work and sifu said it was because my friends chi wasn't good enough...

He didn't go again.

 

[Hamradioguy]

A favorite cousin actively practices Bikram Yoga. She has a Doctorate in psychology, and is about as well grounded and skeptical a person as you'd find. I've never heard her make any wooish claims about it, but for sure some of her fellow Bikram practitioners DO seem to harbor various New Age woo beliefs. I'll have to ask her about this when I next see her.

 

[23_Tauri]

If fit-fast is what you want I recommend Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. It's the hardest workout I've ever experienced, and I like to push hard. It's also entirely woo free.

I have toyed with the idea of learning an martial art in the past, (no Stray Cat, not travelling back in time to learn a martial art ) but never got round to it. More practical application than being able to balance on one leg in a hot room, I guess.

 

[23_Tauri]

A favorite cousin actively practices Bikram Yoga. She has a Doctorate in psychology, and is about as well grounded and skeptical a person as you'd find. I've never heard her make any wooish claims about it, but for sure some of her fellow Bikram practitioners DO seem to harbor various New Age woo beliefs. I'll have to ask her about this when I next see her.

I live in Woo-town, England and there are a lot of yoga schools here. (Not to mention homeopaths, colour-aura therapists, crystal twiddlers, Reiki healers and the like - sigh - but that's another story). Of all the yoga on offer I think Bikram is the least woo-ish, which is why it appeals. There's no 'spiritual' angle and there's no woo in Bikram's set dialogue, it's just the same sequence of postures and the heat. Bikram attracts non-woos and woos alike.

It's just that some (by no means not all) teachers tend to stick the odd bit of their own ad-libbing in the dialogue, about chakras (just plain silly) or "great for scoliosis" (maybe, but unproven).

Back to the OP, anything in the medical literature - actual studies - about yoga and disease prevention/cure?

 

[Naddig74]

I live in Woo-town, England and there are a lot of yoga schools here. (Not to mention homeopaths, colour-aura therapists, crystal twiddlers, Reiki healers and the like - sigh - but that's another story)

Totnes? Or Glastonbury?

 

[23_Tauri]

Brighton. But you're right, those two places have a higher woo-factor than my town.

 

[Cuddles]

Is there any science to indicate that yoga can cure or prevent disease?

No.

How dodgy is the ground on which Bikram Choudhury walks if he really has publically stated that his yoga can cure disease?

It depends a lot on exactly how he states his claims, as well as what diseases it's about. If he flat out says "I can cure cancer", then a complaint could well land him in trouble. On the other hand, if he says things like "This system could lead to better health and has been suggested as an aid to helping with some disease", he's probably in the clear.

Do free-radicals really get expelled through sweat and breath?

No. Radicals are very reactive atoms or molecules (the most common in biology being superoxide and hydroxyl). They're often viewed as "bad" because they can cause cellular damage, but they're also important in various functions, particularly the immune system. While there are no doubt some present in breath and sweat, there's no way to magically channel them out through those routes. Importantly, since they're so reactive, any radicals formed at a random place in the body would have very little chance of actually reaching the skin or lungs in the first place.

Do I retain any credibility as a developing sceptic in the eyes of Randi forumites whilst still practising yoga on a daily basis or have I just lost multiple scepti-points here?

There's really nothing wrong with yoga in principle. It's a perfectly sensible way of getting exercise, relaxing, stretching, and so on. There are certainly plenty of woo claims made about it, but as long as you recognise them for what they are then there's no problem.

What do I do about the woo? Do I just keep ignoring it and rolling my eyes periodically as I have done up to now?

Pretty much everyone will give you a different answer to that one. Some will say you should jump on any woo at every opportunity, others will say you should ignore just about everything unless it's actively harming someone right then. Most people will, obviously, fall somewhere in between. In general for something like this I'd suggest taking the opportunity to discuss the more obviously wrong points with people, outside of classes though, but trying to avoid being too confrontational and alienating people. When it comes down to it, as long as they just believe it's keeping them healthy and won't lead them to turn down real treatment if it's needed, it doesn't seem especially harmful. After all, with most people needing to get more exercise, it likely really is making them healthier.

Do what i do with martial arts

Since when is yoga a martial art?

 

[Naddig74]

Brighton. But you're right, those two places have a higher woo-factor than my town.

Isn't Brighton also the gay capital of the UK? At the risk of sounding homophobic, does being gay lead to higher likelihood of accepting woo?

 

[23_Tauri]

Isn't Brighton also the gay capital of the UK? At the risk of sounding homophobic, does being gay lead to higher likelihood of accepting woo?

Yes it is, and no it doesn't, in my opinion. There's lots of alternative scenes in Brighton, but two of the biggest and well-known are the gay community and the woo-community. But, I would say that gays don't make up a large proportion of woos. In my experience and from my observations, woos are primarily affluent middle class, hetero, eco types, especially but not exclusively women and often with be-sandled and face-painted children in tow. For fear of making (further) gross and unwarranted over-generalisations, gays are into bright shiny things, scatter cushions and spending money, which of course doesn't exclude spending money on bright shiny crystals but I rarely come across gay woos. Then again, maybe everyone here is a bit woo and it's just a matter of degree.
(have I just put myself in the firing line? Oh dear..... )

ETA: quite a lot of gay men come to my Bikram class though.