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Bible study for public schoolkids

crimresearch

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"Public elementary schools will continue to allow Bible classes during class time while the local school board conducts a one-year review to determine if criticism of the practice by some parents is valid...
...The Supreme Court ruled decades ago that the classes do not violate the separation of church and state because they are held away from school premises"

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050215/ap_on_re_us/school_bible_classes

If the Supremes want to review something, they should go after this.
 
They won't rest until every public school is replaced with a Bible academy (or yeshiva or madrasa or ashram and that's only until all those heathens are saved).
 
In that state "No Child Left Behind" refers to the rapture and not failing test scores.
 
What does it matter if the classes are held off of school property if they are held during class time?
 
kalen said:
What does it matter if the classes are held off of school property if they are held during class time?
Well, in ZORACH v. CLAUSON, 343 U.S. 306 (1952), the United States Supreme Court said this factor made a difference:
New York City has a program which permits its public schools to release students during the school day so that they may leave the school buildings and school grounds and go to religious centers for religious instruction or devotional exercises. A student is released on written request of his parents. Those not released stay in the classrooms. The churches make weekly reports to the schools, sending a list of children who have been released from public school but who have not reported for religious instruction.

This "released time" program involves neither religious instruction in public school classrooms nor the expenditure of public funds. All costs, including the application blanks, are paid by the religious organizations. The case is therefore unlike McCollum v. Board of Education, 333 U.S. 203, which involved a "released time" program from Illinois. In that case the classrooms were turned over to religious instructors. We accordingly held that the program violated the First Amendment which (by reason of the Fourteenth Amendment) prohibits the states from establishing religion or prohibiting its free exercise.
...
It takes obtuse reasoning to inject any issue of the "free exercise" of religion into the present case. No one is forced to go to the religious classroom and no religious exercise or instruction is brought to the classrooms of the public schools. A student need not take religious instruction. He is left to his own desires as to the manner or time of his religious devotions, if any.

There is a suggestion that the system involves the use of coercion to get public school students into religious classrooms. There is no evidence in the record before us that supports that conclusion.
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We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being. We guarantee the freedom to worship as one chooses. We make room for as wide a variety of beliefs and creeds as the spiritual needs of man deem necessary. We sponsor an attitude on the part of government that shows no partiality to any one group and that lets each flourish according to the zeal of its adherents and the appeal of its dogma. When the state encourages religious instruction or cooperates with religious authorities by adjusting the schedule of public events to sectarian needs, it follows the best of our traditions. For it then respects the religious nature of our people and accommodates the public service to their spiritual needs.
...
In the McCollum case the classrooms were used for religious instruction and the force of the public school was used to promote that instruction. Here, as we have said, the public schools do no more than accommodate their schedules to a program of outside religious instruction.
This opinion was written by Justice Douglas, who was famous for many of his bizarre opinions. In Justice Douglas's view, not allowing the kiddies to get religious instruction during school time would be "hostility" toward religion.

(Of interest to some may be Justice Douglas's invocation of the "fastidious atheist or agnostic," who might find fault with the Court's "supplication" that calls upon the Almighty to "save the United States and this Honorable Court." In the Pledge case, Justice O'Connor refers to it as a "proclamation," rather than a "supplication." A "supplication" is, after all, a prayer.)

There were dissents in Zorach from Justices Black, Frankfurter and Jackson. Justice Black said he thought the earlier McCollum case was exactly on point:
I see no significant difference between the invalid Illinois [McCollum] system and that of New York here sustained. Except for the use of the school buildings in Illinois, there is no difference between the systems which I consider even worthy of mention.
In other words, Justice Black felt that it didn't make any difference, constitutionally speaking, whether the religious instruction took place on school grounds or not:
McCollum thus held that Illinois could not constitutionally manipulate the compelled classroom hours of its compulsory school machinery so as to channel children into sectarian classes. Yet that is exactly what the Court holds New York can do.
Justice Black further criticized the majority for insulting those whose religious beliefs differ from their own, referring to "the Court's legal exaltation of the orthodox and its derogation of unbelievers." He added, "The First Amendment has lost must [sic] if the religious follower and the atheist are no longer to be judicially regarded as entitled to equal justice under law."

Justice Frankfurter felt that religious instruction during school hours was an important consideration:
The pith of the case is that formalized religious instruction is substituted for other school activity which those who do not participate in the released-time program are compelled to attend. The school system is very much in operation during this kind of released time. If its doors are closed, they are closed upon those students who do not attend the religious instruction, in order to keep them within the school. That is the very thing which raises the constitutional issue. It is not met by disregarding it. Failure to discuss this issue does not take it out of the case.
He also chided Justice Douglas for making much of there being no evidence in the record that supports a conclusion that the challenged system involves the use of coercion to get public school students into religious classrooms. As Justice Frankfurter pointed out, there was no evidence of any coercion because the challengers never had any opportunity to present any! They wanted to present their evidence of coercion, but the lower courts deemed it irrelevant to the constitutional question!

Justice Jackson asserted that coercion and use of state time were considerations important to constitutionality:
This released time program is founded upon a use of the State's power of coercion, which, for me, determines its unconstitutionality. Stripped to its essentials, the plan has two stages: first, that the State compel each student to yield a large part of his time for public secular education; and, second, that some of it be "released" to him on condition that he devote it to sectarian religious purposes.
Justice Jackson also rebuked the majority for its insinuation that those who object to such a program are necessarily hostile to religion:
As one whose children, as a matter of free choice, have been sent to privately supported Church schools, I may challenge the Court's suggestion that opposition to this plan can only be antireligious, atheistic, or agnostic. My evangelistic brethren confuse an objection to compulsion with an objection to religion. It is possible to hold a faith with enough confidence to believe that what should rendered to God does not need to be decided and collected by Caesar.
Zorach has not been overruled, but the Supreme Court has largely avoided following much of its sweeping language in majority opinions. In the Pledge case, Justice Thomas used some of Zorach's belittling language, saying that where there is no coercion, it would take "obtuse reasoning" to find a valid free-exercise claim.
 
When the Supreme Court "outlawed school prayer", they didn't really outlaw school prayer. They set up a three part test for religious policies that made all sorts of sense to me. I think that three part test, known as the Lemon (sp?) test, should be applied to this policy. In order not to be considered a violation of the first ammendment guarantees of freedom of religion, a policy had to

1. Have a secular purpose.

2. Not favor one religion over another, including no religion. and

3. Avoid excessive entanglements.

So, does this policy have a secular purpose? I would say yes. The education of people about religion is valuable to a secular world.

Does it favor one religion over another?

This one seems like a no brainer to me. It clearly does. Local churches offer the instruction. Of course, if any church or other organization that was vaguely church-like could participate, then this problem would be alleviated. If the local atheist organization was allowed to offer instruction, then it would pass muster.

Does it avoid excessive entanglements? What this means is that school officials shouldn't be in the business of trying to decide what is and isn't a religion. If they object when students go for thirty minutes to the local tarot reader, they are excessively entangled. I suspect that this is the case in this school district.

Furthermore, the fact that non-participants do nothing during this time might be said to favor one religion over another, since participants "get something" while non-participants do not. Also, if this time is taken out of normal instructional hours, then it would seem that none of the students, and in particular the non-participants, are getting their full quota of instructional time.

I am generally liberal when it comes to policies like this one, which means that I think people should be allowed to be religious if they feel like it, but this case seems to go to far.
 
Hutch said:
Brown beat you to it.

The Thomas Jefferson thread was about a bill insisting that it be legislated that the country was founded on Christian principles, which has not been put into action.

This shuffling of school kids over to churches is already a routine practice.
 
Can't parents brainwash their offspring on their own time, and not the taxpayers? Society's interest in having free public education is to produce educated people. Religion would seem to be outside the scope of public education's interests, abilities, and bailiwick here.

Not to mention that all of the students who are being compelled to get religion by their parents are already getting instruction outside of school hours, presumably.
 

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