Before and After the Crucifixion

irishman

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A question thats been bugging me has been what do the organised christian religions state is the difference in what happened to someone who died, say, an hour before Jesus was crucified to that which happened to someone who died an hour after he was crucified?

Supposin' he saved us all and all that.......

Another way of putting it is, "Specifically what did Jesus do for us by dying (?) on the cross?"
 
The answer I got from a fundy once was "everyone who dies (or died), without accepting Jesus Christ as their personal lord and saviour, goes to hell". So the person who died an hour before Christ was crucified would go to hell. The person who died an hour after would probably go to hell too, as Christianity wasn't much of a religion at the time of Christ's crucifixtion.
 
So it was really nothing more than a PR stunt.

I can just see the marketing people coming up with that one......
 
irishman said:
A question thats been bugging me has been what do the organised christian religions state is the difference in what happened to someone who died, say, an hour before Jesus was crucified to that which happened to someone who died an hour after he was crucified?

Supposin' he saved us all and all that.......

Another way of putting it is, "Specifically what did Jesus do for us by dying (?) on the cross?"
Click to expand...
Before Jesus, people got into heaven by their good works or because God liked them. After Jesus, everybody with the password, "I'm a believer", gets in. (Interestingly, it is the same password used by the Monkees fan club.)

But maybe I should be more reverant. After all, Jesus paid the ultimate price for our sins: He died for the weekend.
 
After I gave up Christianity, this was one of those questions that I looked back on and realized how silly the answer looked.

Nevertheless, treating your question as a sincere one, Christian philosophers have discussed this along with all those other weighty questions like the true nature of the Eucharist and all that sort of thing.

I was taught, in Cathechism classes, that good people who died before the crucifixion, or maybe it was the birth of Christ, went to Limbo. When Christ died, he descended in the depths, and opened up the gates to all of those patiently waiting to get into heaven. (I'll have to look up in my Bible just where Jesus descended to. Some traditions say he opened up the gates of Hell, but I think the Catholics decided he must have meant Limbo. I don't even know if that is actually in the Bible, but it is part of the tradition, and it is part of the statement of faith still recited by Catholics every Sunday.) Unfortunately for modern students of these weighty problems, I think the Catholics have cancelled Limbo. There was a recent thread on the subject, but I didn't read it. If memory serves me correctly, the current interpretation is that salvation was retroactive and God, knowing that the ultimate sacrifice would eventually be paid, made salvation retroactive for good people.

This fits with the Bible itself, where Jesus tells the story of Lazarus and the Rich man. The rich man went to Hell, and he saw Lazarus with Abraham in heaven. Since Jesus was alive, and still on his first go round as human, Abraham couldn't have been in heaven if that was contigent upon waiting for the crucifixion. You can also find a reference to good people in heaven In the Second Book of Maccabees, but don't look for that book unless you are Catholic. The protestants and Jews don't have it.

Lisa's interpretation of the fundamentalist position is clearly incorrect. It is true that some of them teach you will go to hell if you don't accept Jesus, but it's more accurate to say that you will go to Hell if you don't accept the teachings of God. Before Jesus showed up, that meant following the Law and the Prophets. Moses and his friends accepted Jesus, they just didn't know that was what they were doing, because God hadn't told them that yet. All they knew was to take a day off work and not eat pigs, and that there would be more to come in the future.
 
irishman said:
So it was really nothing more than a PR stunt.

I can just see the marketing people coming up with that one......
Click to expand...
Heaven, 1 BC

Gabriel: My Lord, I hate to be the bearer of ill tidings, but your approval rating slipped again this past century. It's time we started thinking outside of the box if we want to turn this thing around.

God: All right, I'll just pop off and firebomb some more homosexuals, then?

Gabriel: I think a more delicate approach is called for at this time. Part of the problem is your current image as a vengeful God. Sure, you could kill off a few thousand sodomites now and it might make you feel better, but I have a plan that should have people worrying about what to do with their d:Dks for millenia to come.

God: Really...?

Gabriel: Yes. [pulls out thick binder] It's all written down here, but I'll give you an overview. You go down to earth, as a human. We'll start with a spectacular birth, from a virgin...

God: Virgins can't give birth, Gabriel.

Gabriel: Which is why the plan works so well. Those humans simply love believing rubbish, the more fanciful the better. Anyway, you're born, you grow up, spend a few years glad-handing and spreading "the good news," die, come back, and ascend to Heaven. That'll wow 'em.

God: The "good news"?

Gabriel: yes. Essentially, you push all the fire and brimstone stuff until after they're dead. Instead of burning live sinners, you burn the dead ones, but give them a free pass if they believe in you. Your "death," will be a sacrifice for all their sins. You'll be a hero!

God: But I'm the one that'll be burning them anyway. It's kind of a game of silly buggers, isn't it? Won't they get that?

Gabriel: As one of their famous leaders will say one day: "You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time." It's the latter demographic we're after.

God: I see. [Leafs through the binder] Ummmm... Gabe?

Gabriel: Yes, Lord?

God: What's this bit here about the nails and the whips and the spears?

Gabriel: Ah, the Crucifixion. That's your crowning [ahem] achievement. Immense suffering for all humanity. But it's all over in a weekend, so nothing to worry about there.

God: Couldn't I just go in my sleep?

Gabriel: "God dies in sleep, comes back two days later" just doesn't work. There's no drama. There's no blood. It's a sacrifice; there must be blood.

God: Why?

Gabriel: Your rules. I told you to take the vegetables.

God: Well, if it must be done, it must, but do I have to do it?

Gabriel: Well, it would help if you tossed out some miracles during your stay, keep the faithful enthralled. Yes, I think we need a deity.

God: Hold on. [hollering] Jesus!

Jesus [offstage]: Yeah, Dad?

God: Come here a sec. [to Gabriel]: All right, get everything ready.

Gabriel: Already contacted the virgin, Lord.
 
Meadmaker said:
After I gave up Christianity, this was one of those questions that I looked back on and realized how silly the answer looked.

Nevertheless, treating your question as a sincere one, Christian philosophers have discussed this along with all those other weighty questions like the true nature of the Eucharist and all that sort of thing.

I was taught, in Cathechism classes, that good people who died before the crucifixion, or maybe it was the birth of Christ, went to Limbo. When Christ died, he descended in the depths, and opened up the gates to all of those patiently waiting to get into heaven. (I'll have to look up in my Bible just where Jesus descended to. Some traditions say he opened up the gates of Hell, but I think the Catholics decided he must have meant Limbo. I don't even know if that is actually in the Bible, but it is part of the tradition, and it is part of the statement of faith still recited by Catholics every Sunday.)
Click to expand...

I'd have to check as well, but I'm pretty sure there's no actual mention of where Jesus descended to, if he did at all. My memory of what the Bible says is that he died, was buried, and then rose after three days.

Marc
 
Marquis de Carabas said:
Heaven, 1 BC

Gabriel: My Lord, I hate to be the bearer of ill tidings, but your approval rating slipped again this past century. It's time we started thinking outside of the box if we want to turn this thing around.

God: All right, I'll just pop off and firebomb some more homosexuals, then?

Gabriel: I think a more delicate approach is called for at this time. Part of the problem is your current image as a vengeful God. Sure, you could kill off a few thousand sodomites now and it might make you feel better, but I have a plan that should have people worrying about what to do with their d:Dks for millenia to come.

God: Really...?

Gabriel: Yes. [pulls out thick binder] It's all written down here, but I'll give you an overview. You go down to earth, as a human. We'll start with a spectacular birth, from a virgin...

God: Virgins can't give birth, Gabriel.

Gabriel: Which is why the plan works so well. Those humans simply love believing rubbish, the more fanciful the better. Anyway, you're born, you grow up, spend a few years glad-handing and spreading "the good news," die, come back, and ascend to Heaven. That'll wow 'em.

God: The "good news"?

Gabriel: yes. Essentially, you push all the fire and brimstone stuff until after they're dead. Instead of burning live sinners, you burn the dead ones, but give them a free pass if they believe in you. Your "death," will be a sacrifice for all their sins. You'll be a hero!

God: But I'm the one that'll be burning them anyway. It's kind of a game of silly buggers, isn't it? Won't they get that?

Gabriel: As one of their famous leaders will say one day: "You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time." It's the latter demographic we're after.

God: I see. [Leafs through the binder] Ummmm... Gabe?

Gabriel: Yes, Lord?

God: What's this bit here about the nails and the whips and the spears?

Gabriel: Ah, the Crucifixion. That's your crowning [ahem] achievement. Immense suffering for all humanity. But it's all over in a weekend, so nothing to worry about there.

God: Couldn't I just go in my sleep?

Gabriel: "God dies in sleep, comes back two days later" just doesn't work. There's no drama. There's no blood. It's a sacrifice; there must be blood.

God: Why?

Gabriel: Your rules. I told you to take the vegetables.

God: Well, if it must be done, it must, but do I have to do it?

Gabriel: Well, it would help if you tossed out some miracles during your stay, keep the faithful enthralled. Yes, I think we need a deity.

God: Hold on. [hollering] Jesus!

Jesus [offstage]: Yeah, Dad?

God: Come here a sec. [to Gabriel]: All right, get everything ready.

Gabriel: Already contacted the virgin, Lord.
Click to expand...
I hate you, MdeC. I'm reading this at work and can't expalin to my cow-irkers why I'm laughing. You're horrible. :dl:
 
Yeah I'll second that for Marquis, that rocks.

On topic, the best explanation I've seen on this topic was by Thomas Aquinas as part of a creedal statement. There's a copyright on the following (expository sermon?) so I'm going to clip it quite a bit to hopefully give the gist of it.

The short version would be that everyone who died before Christ went to hell (or limbo, which seems to be described here as what hell was 'BC'). I'm not real clear on the limbo thing. So if someone died an hour before the crucifixion they would go to hell, but only for an hour if they were a good person. If you were the same 'good' person born a few hundred years before, well that was your bad luck...
The Catechism of St. Thomas Aquinas
THE FIFTH ARTICLE: "He Descended into Hell."

The death of Christ...

REASONS FOR CHRIST'S DESCENT
There are four reasons why Christ together with His soul descended into hell.
First, He wished to take upon Himself the entire punishment for our sin, and
thus atone for its entire guilt...

...Therefore, before the coming of Christ all men, even the holy
fathers after their death, descended into hell. Accordingly in order to take
upon Himself most perfectly the punishment due to sinners, Christ not only suffered death, but also His soul descended into hell.[2] He, however, descended for a different cause than did the fathers; for they did so out of necessity and were of necessity taken there and detained, but Christ descended there of His own power and free will: "I am counted among them that go down to the pit; I am become as a man without help, free among the dead."[3] The others were there as captives, but Christ was freely there.

The second reason is that He might perfectly deliver all His friends. Christ had
His friends both in the world and in hell. The former were His friends in that
they possessed charity; and the latter were they who departed this life with
charity and faith in the future Redeemer, such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and other just and good men. Therefore, since Christ had dwelt among His friends in this world and had delivered them by His death, so He wished to visit His friends who were detained in hell and deliver them also: "I will penetrate to all the lower parts of the earth, and will behold all that hope in the Lord."[4]

The third reason is that He would completely triumph over the devil. Now, a
person is perfectly vanquished when he is not only overcome in conflict, but
also when the assault is carried into his very home, and the seat of his kingdom is taken away from him....

The fourth and final reason is that Christ might free the just who were in hell
[or Limbo]. (this sounds like reason #2 to me so I might be missing something here) For as Christ wished to suffer death to deliver the living from death, so also He would descend into hell to deliver those who were there: "Thou also by the blood of Thy testament, hast sent forth Thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water."[11] And again: "O death, I will be thy death; O hell, I will be thy bite."[12] Although Christ wholly overcame death, yet not so completely did He destroy hell, but, as it were, He bit it. He did not free all from hell, but those only who were without mortal sin. He likewise liberated those without original sin, from which they, as individuals, were freed by circumcision; or before [the institution of] circumcision, they who had been saved through their parents' faith (which refers to those who died before having the use of reason); or by the sacrifices, and by their faith in the future coming of Christ (which refers to adults)."[13] The reason they were there in hell [i.e., Limbo] is original sin which they had contracted from Adam, and from which as members of the human race they could not be delivered except by Christ. Therefore, Christ left there those who had descended there with mortal sin, and the non-circumcised children. Thus, it is seen that Christ descended into hell, and for what reasons. Now we may gather four considerations from this for our own instruction...

Copyright (c) 1996 by James Akin. All Rights Reserved. (snipped)

Full text at:
http://catholiccatechism.homestead.com/acreed05.txt
Click to expand...
The highlighted part is a small sample of where things just don't make any sense to me. Eternal punishment for a finite life has ethical flaws that I don't see any way to overcome and still maintain the idea of a 'just' God. This seems like a chaos, where true justice would demand some kind of order. God is even claimed to be a God of order and not chaos, and yet, this notion of eternal punishment for a finite life is exactly that - a chaotic kind of justice. maybe someone smarter on this topic can help me understand better.
 
irishman said:
Another way of putting it is, "Specifically what did Jesus do for us by dying (?) on the cross?"
Click to expand...

I like to entertain the possibility Jesus didn't die on the cross, though I'm no conspiracy theorist, this is my one exception. Supposing (and that's a big supposition to make) fragments of the gospels are true.

1. Jesus, on trial before Pontius Pilate, stays silent to let debate go on around him. He knows human nature and therefore what his fate will be. (A made-up story would have god incarnate more glorious, surely?)
2. On the cross, Jesus' side gets pierced to relieve fluid build up around his heart from the slow suffocating of the pressure of his own bodyweight - and vinegar used to anaethetise the wound. (A small bribe here and there.)
3. Jesus pronounces himself "dead", mumbling something heroic about "It is finished" - thus avoiding getting his weasly little legs snapped like other crucifixees to make sure they died after much longer on the cross.
4. Pilate expressed surprise that Jesus was dead after only 6 hours.
5. Jesus taken away and revived. In the words of Baldrick: a brilliant and cunning idea.

I'm glad you started this thread, irishman. I going to wait till Easter. Fellow skeptics, correct me if you will, (nicely :D ). The above is bits and pieces I've put together over the years through reading and documentaries and... human nature - truth is stanger than fiction.
 
Marquis de Carabas said:
Heaven, 1 BC...

*(snip)*

God: Come here a sec. [to Gabriel]: All right, get everything ready.
Gabriel: Already contacted the virgin, Lord.
Click to expand...

The sequel...

Gabriel: My Lord, I hate to be the bearer of ill tidings, but your approval rating slipped again this past 600 years. It's time we started thinking outside of the box if we want to turn this thing around.

God: But you said that last time!

Gabriel: No, no, no - it's those pesky humans you've endowed with free-will. There's this really nice guy. His name is Muhammed*...

Let me have a word with him, on your behalf.



* = peace be upon him (ETA: for protocol)
 
The sequel part 3...

Gabriel: My Lord, I hate to be the bearer of ill tidings, but your approval rating slipped again. It's time we started thinking outside of the box if we want to turn this thing around.

God: But you said that the last two times!

Gabriel: No, no, no - We need to start all over. There's this guy and does a thing with a hat and some glasses. His name is Joseph Smith...

Let me have a word with him, on your behalf.
 
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