Been thinking about prayer.

[Upchurch]

So, I've got a former roommate who's like a little sister to me and she's going through some rough times. A rather protracted and lengthy amount of rough times in point of fact. And as people often do, she has turned to God, probably for the first time in her life. Although her family isn't really religious at all, she went to Catholic school up until college. So her concept of God, at least right now, is of the "Magical Sky Daddy With a Plan" genre.

When we lived together, I was coming out of what I would now label my "hard-core atheist" phase, so her impression of me is that I still think all religion is unmitigated baloney, which isn't exactly true. My latest exploration into Unitarianism has me rethinking concepts, but I'll get to that in a sec.

So, my friend, feeling generally crappy, asked me if I would pray for her even though she knew I thought prayer was a load of garbage. Honestly, I was more motivated to helping her feel better than out of any reflection or honesty when I replied that I didn't think it was garbage and I would pray for her. But there was just enough honesty in there when I added that I would pray for her "in my own way". Of course, she asked what I meant by that not believeing (correctly) that I suddenly believed in Magical Sky Daddy who answers prayers.

Now, admittedly, I was sort of flying by the seat of my pants at this point, but I said something to the effect of "Well, what is prayer other than hopes and wishes? I hope and wish for things. Most people address those hopes and wishes directly to God, mine are more like an open letter." She had some trouble with the ambiguousness of that and wouldn't buy that I was directing those prayers toward her (as opposed to God) so I finally said I directed my prayers to the universe as a whole, for lack of a better concrete object.

But, I think I may have hit on an idea I like in that exchange. For me, a sensible prayer would be hoping for something good to happen to others, that isn't directed to any specific devine agency. Do I think that praying will make things happen? No, not directly. My friend knows that I'm praying for her (and honestly I am, in my own way) so perhaps that will help motivate her to do something to help herself.

I don't have any unreasonable expectations for results of this kind of prayer. It's sort of the metaphysical equivalent of cheerleading rather than trying to heal someone or make God do my bidding. So, is there a flaw here that I'm not seeing or is this a reasonable approach to "prayer"?

 

[Hexxenhammer]

If you don't specify a diety the prayer goes into the celestial general voice mail and all the gods take turns answering it. Just hope Hades, Hel, Coyote, Loki, Set, or Kali don't answer it.

 

[Humphreys]

Is this the same concept as some alternative medicine which works because the user thinks it is going to work?

You are deceiving her. Might as well pretend you are praying to god and not actually do anything at all.

Right? Or do I misunderstand?

The flaw seems to be the fact you aren't doing anything besides convincing her you are praying to god, while not openly telling a lie.

 

[whitefork]

A. You pray and ask for something to happen (or not happen)

1. God hears your prayer and responds to it.
2. God hears your prayer and does nothing.
3. God hears your prayer and punishes you for asking for what you asked for.

B. You pray and ask for nothing, just thank god for his many blessings.

same 3 options, but in case 3 god punishes you for not being sufficiently grateful (as in the case of Cain).

C. You pray as a meditative exercise.

1. God approves and gives you spiritual peace or the equivalent
2. God does nothing
3. God disapproves and torments you.

D. You don't pray.

1. God does nothing
2. God does good things for you
3. God punishes you.

Looks to me like praying and not praying is pretty much the same thing, if god's will is inscrutable.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Whenever someone asks me to pray for them, and I honestly want what they want prayed for to happen, I just say OK. I see it as just my affirmation that I hope things work out for them, and I hope that affirmation helps them out. So I can see what you're getting at.

I would draw the line, however, at telling someone I was praying for them. No matter what I mean by "pray," I know how they will interpret it, and I avoid the word to avoid any discussion about why or how I use it. I just say, "I hope everything works out," or somesuch.

 

[Dancing David]

There are as many facets to prayer as there are the people praying, but in past conversations it comes down to human experience.

There are benefits to the person praying, to believe that the universe cares about you, wants to take care of you and is willing to meet your needs is a very fullfilling thought.

In Creative Visualization Shakti Gwain laid out a some what woo attempt to explain how visualizing things we want or need makes it more likely that we will obtain them in our lives. And I have known some very hard core atheists who have sued visualization as a preparation for events.

But does praying for someone actualy have some mystic benefit for the person prayed for? Are my children actualy safer because of the wards and gaurdians I visualize around them. I hope so, but probably not.

Yet, the world that we live in is often the product of our choices and the influence of belief has a very subtle and long lasting effect on which choices we even percieve and make. So perhaps in praying for your friend you might establish a mind set where you are more likely to make choices to benefit her.

I have always found the best use of prayer is to pray for changes within myself and to bless those that vex me.

 

[Sundog]

What's going on around here? Has there been a coup by Christians while I was away?

 

[Upchurch]

Okay, I think everyone but Hexx may have missed my point. Probably because I didn't make it very clear in my story telling.

Is "hoping that something comes to pass or wishing that it does" a reasonable definition of "praying"? I'm not talking about hoping and/or wishing to diety X, I'm talking about hoping and/or wishing. Period.

In other words, does prayer have to have a supernatural element to it in order for it to be prayer?

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Okay, I think everyone but Hexx may have missed my point. Probably because I didn't make it very clear in my story telling.

Is "hoping that something comes to pass or wishing that it does" a reasonable definition of "praying"? I'm not talking about hoping and/or wishing to diety X, I'm talking about hoping and/or wishing. Period.

In other words, does prayer have to have a supernatural element to it in order for it to be prayer?

I think prayer does have a supernatural element by definition. In my definition anyway hoping for something is merely wanting it, praying for it is asking for some outside force to grant it to you

 

[Samus]

Interesting scenario. I try to avoid telling people that I will keep them in my thoughts, and hope for the best for them, because really, that means I'm not doing anything.

I have never had someone outright ask me to pray for them, much less someone I care about as you obviously care for her. In that situation, I don't know what I would do or say. Perhaps I would just smile and nod, but even then I am not being completely truthful, because I have no intention of praying.

Sometimes, people are not looking for a philosophical discussion of prayer, but rather, that they have people who support them. So, I usually offer to support in any way I can, even if that just means being a shoulder to cry on, or someone to just listen. If they don't want those, then I usually tell them that I hope it all works out for them, and tell them something positive about themselves to give a bit of a self-esteem boost.

As for the broader definition, and praying in your own way, I would say that prayer, by definition, is addressed to a deity of some kind. You are thinking of her, but the act of praying itself you are not doing.

 

[Sundog]

Okay, I think everyone but Hexx may have missed my point. Probably because I didn't make it very clear in my story telling.

Is "hoping that something comes to pass or wishing that it does" a reasonable definition of "praying"? I'm not talking about hoping and/or wishing to diety X, I'm talking about hoping and/or wishing. Period.

In other words, does prayer have to have a supernatural element to it in order for it to be prayer?

Yes, of course!

Examine your reasons for positing otherwise. Isn't it just to muddy the water so you can "have you beliefs and eat them too"... so you can hold a position offensive to your friend without actually offending them? Honesty is the best policy. You can be true to your principles without necessarily hurting anyone's feelings.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by Upchurch
In other words, does prayer have to have a supernatural element to it in order for it to be prayer?

Does it have to? Probably not. Is it generally interpreted to have to? Yes.

That's why I said what I said. If someone else asks me to pray for them, I say OK and feel free to use my definition of prayer (similar to what you've been getting at) If I'm the one who brings up the word prayer, however, I'd feel I was being dishonest without a lengthy explanation of what I meant.

 

[Samus]

Think of it this way: a prayer is a request. You're requesting world peace, or financial assistance, or forgiveness.

Keeping someone in your thoughts and hoping for the best is not a request.

 

[Hexxenhammer]

Okay, I think everyone but Hexx may have missed my point.

This is the only time you will ever see this sentence.

 

[Hexxenhammer]

What I would have told her is not that I'd pray for her, but if she needed any real help from me I'd be available. And then, because I don't like uncomfortable situations, hope she never asked for any.

 

[Earthborn]

Is "hoping that something comes to pass or wishing that it does" a reasonable definition of "praying"?

I think so, yes. However, I think that in order for it to be considered 'praying' instead of just thinking about what you hope and wish for, it needs to be accompanied by some sort of ritual, whether folding hands, lighting a candle or doing anything physical to make it appear to have more power. It is not necessary that you believe it will do anything, but I think doing anything ritualistic can make someone feel that they are doing just a little bit more than just ordinary everyday wishing.

I'm not talking about hoping and/or wishing to diety X, I'm talking about hoping and/or wishing. Period.

Since few religious people even claim to really know anything about God, which means that they are not directing it to any particular diety X, I would think there is little difference.

In other words, does prayer have to have a supernatural element to it in order for it to be prayer? [/B]

No, I don't see why it should.

I've heard many conversion stories of people who say something 'I never really believed in God. But at one time I was so much in the dumps that I needed God to exist, so I prayed, although not believing it might work...' So I don't think the expectation of something supernatural to occur doesn't need to be there. Also the belief that you are actually in contact with anything is unnecessary, and it is also unnecessary that you are convinced that something supernatural was occuring immediately afterwards. Or ever.

So, is there a flaw here that I'm not seeing or is this a reasonable approach to "prayer"?

I've heard a lot of deeply religious people say that prayer 'can't make God listen to you' and that 'you pray for yourself, not for God', so I think if we understand prayer in that way, your approach to it is perfectly reasonable and consistent with the commonly understood meaning.

 

[Upchurch]

What I would have told her is not that I'd pray for her, but if she needed any real help from me I'd be available.

Way past that point. There is no real help that I haven't already offered or can reasonably give that she would accept. Going out and beating certain people up for her, while gratifying, wouldn't solve her problems. It's one of those situations where she needs grow up a little and learn to handle things like an adult. Something she needs to do on her own.

So, for the sake of the argument, let's take it for granted that there is no practical aid I can offer beyond being a supportive cheerleader.

Sure, there is a placebo effect at work here. And sure, at its root, the placebo effect works on deception. In this case, it's self-deception as she is the one that has convinced herself that it will work. Considering that this is mostly a self-induced psychological problem, it isn't unreasonable to consider that if she thinks it will work, it will actually work. No devine intervention required.

Am I being dishonest? I don't think so. If by telling her that I will pray for her, she feels better and I actually do pray for her (after a fashion), where is the lie? Am I responsible for her self-deception? Is that self-deception a bad thing if she that is how she copes? If I were to say that I would pray for her and didn't, that would be dishonest

Regardless, the events that led me to the question are inconsequential to the question of prayer itself. I've heard meditation referred to as a kind of prayer and we all know that meditation often isn't directed toward a supernatural entity, per se.

As Marquis de Carabas said

Does it have to [have a supernatural element]? Probably not. Is it generally interpreted to have to? Yes.

Since when have we ever equated popular opinion to truth?

I'm just trying to explore what might be an alternative to the common understanding of prayer. By definition of "alternative", it won't necessarily fit perfectly with the traditional understanding. The point is to try a different take on an idea and see if it leads anywhere productive or has any merit.

 

[Sundog]

Am I being dishonest? I don't think so. If by telling her that I will pray for her, she feels better and I actually do pray for her (after a fashion), where is the lie?

Prayer is invoking whatever unseen powers are out there to use their powers to answer your desires. If you believe in such, then "praying" isn't a lie. If you don't, then of course it is.

The word can't be watered down. Praying means talking to God, whoever he or she might be. Any other definition is waffling.

 

[whitefork]

...because my existence, and the existence of the whole world around me, is in itself a miraculous process, my entire life, cradle to grave, is an implict act of worship of the universe. Since I'm here, and you're here, and we're worshipping together, you'd have to agree that I'm praying for you just by existing

You can take that one to the bank.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by Sundog
The word can't be watered down. Praying means talking to God, whoever he or she might be. Any other definition is waffling.

Words are not timeless unchanging entities. Definitions are not set in stone. And Upchurch's modification of prayer's definition is not without precedent. Colloquially, we exchange pray for wish all the time. "I pray I get to make the hockey game this weekend," is a sentence I've uttered many a time.

In fact, check the second definition of pray and the fifth definition of prayer. These seem to me to be in line with what Upchurch is talking about. That that is not the intent of someone who says, "Pray for me," seems irrelevant. If Upchurch honestly wishes the best for his friend, which we have no reason to doubt, it seems completely justifiable for him to say he will pray for her.