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Basis of Immortality?

Kumar

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K
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Messages
14,259
Hello,
Greetings!

Just got the initiation to check it.

What can be the basis of our Immortality directly or indirectly? Can it be:-

At current/gross level (Observable)

1. Our Clones

2. Our Children

3. Our physical remains after death--bones, DNA etc.

4. Our work done(good & bad)

5. Or Otherwise?

At Prime Level (non-observable)

1. Our prime energy form

2. Our pure/impure soul or ghosts

3. Our reincarnations

4. Or otherwise?

You may discuss these, logically or scientifically.

Best wishes.
 
Self replicating robots on interstellar journeys mining the void for precious atoms to fuse into their ever-expanding metal bodies.
 
I don't even know what is meant by "the basis of our immortality," since it implies that "our immortality" is something we know is real, and agree upon. That, you might recall from your extensive research into the obvious, might be called "begging the question."

I would suggest that for immortality to have any meaning, something of the person involved must be recognized or recognizable. The socalled "gross level" categories include various cultural instances in which one might be considered to gain a measure of immortality, or at least an open-ended delay of final mortality. Our work done, our legacy. Even so, true immortality is rare and never assured. Moses, Socrates, Shakespeare, Mozart, may be close, but we cannot be sure that their individuality will endure forever. Even the anonymous makers of prehistoric henges and cairns might be said to have some immortality, in that their work remains, even though their names are lost. Something of their legacy has endured for hundreds, even thousands of years, but will it for millions?

In the case of the non observable categories, by the very virtue of their being non-observable, the issue of immortality is meaningless. I would hold with the basic pragmatic principle, that if a difference is real it must make some conceivable difference. Sure, conservation of matter makes everything immortal in a sense, but if you can't sort it out, it's not immortality of the individual. If ghosts existed they'd be observable. If reincarnation existed, it would make for immortality only if there were some knowable link between incarnations. If not, it would be no more than an immaterial version of recycling atoms. Since it is not known to exist, nor reliably observed to exist, such speculation is only a mental exercise anyway.
 
Brainache said:
Self replicating robots on interstellar journeys mining the void for precious atoms to fuse into their ever-expanding metal bodies.
Click to expand...

Welcome. Will you please explain it more in simple language?
 
Little 10 Toes said:
We are not immortal.

Define "gross" since you are not using the word correctly. Define "prime" since it does not make sense the way you are using it.
Click to expand...

Prime: start of us, should be energy state. Gross: Our today live state.
 
Brainache said:
Self replicating robots on interstellar journeys mining the void for precious atoms to fuse into their ever-expanding metal bodies.
Click to expand...

Kumar said:
Welcome. Will you please explain it more in simple language?
Click to expand...

OK.

Man-made machines that can make copies of themselves travelling between the stars using whatever stuff they can find to add to their bodies and in that way grow and multiply forever.
 
bruto said:
I don't even know what is meant by "the basis of our immortality," since it implies that "our immortality" is something we know is real, and agree upon. That, you might recall from your extensive research into the obvious, might be called "begging the question."

I would suggest that for immortality to have any meaning, something of the person involved must be recognized or recognizable.
Click to expand...

Welcome & thanks.

Yes it must be recognizable, logically or scientifically and directly or indirectly.

The socalled "gross level" categories include various cultural instances in which one might be considered to gain a measure of immortality, or at least an open-ended delay of final mortality. Our work done, our legacy. Even so, true immortality is rare and never assured. Moses, Socrates, Shakespeare, Mozart, may be close, but we cannot be sure that their individuality will endure forever. Even the anonymous makers of prehistoric henges and cairns might be said to have some immortality, in that their work remains, even though their names are lost. Something of their legacy has endured for hundreds, even thousands of years, but will it for millions?
Click to expand...

Yes, that may not be immortal but long terms unless some godlike work can be anticipated. What about clones & dead body remains? I think we got these intact even after many million years.

In the case of the non observable categories, by the very virtue of their being non-observable, the issue of immortality is meaningless. I would hold with the basic pragmatic principle, that if a difference is real it must make some conceivable difference. Sure, conservation of matter makes everything immortal in a sense, but if you can't sort it out, it's not immortality of the individual. If ghosts existed they'd be observable. If reincarnation existed, it would make for immortality only if there were some knowable link between incarnations. If not, it would be no more than an immaterial version of recycling atoms. Since it is not known to exist, nor reliably observed to exist, such speculation is only a mental exercise anyway.
Click to expand...

Yes quite logical. True basis of all these will be needed to know in science. Logically, our prime energy form should be immortal/eternal. But how it can hold information of our individuality, will be a question mark. Soul/ghosts-- can it be some form of emitted or reflected spectrum of EMRs at the time of death? Reincarnation: can it be, emitted or reflective spectrum(say soul), merged in any other form of body and make energy basis to that? I think, such spectrum remain present in environment/universe eternally. ?
 
Kumar said:
Hello,
Greetings!

Just got the initiation to check it.

What can be the basis of our Immortality directly or indirectly? Can it be:-

At current/gross level (Observable)

1. Our Clones

2. Our Children

3. Our physical remains after death--bones, DNA etc.

4. Our work done(good & bad)

5. Or Otherwise?

At Prime Level (non-observable)

1. Our prime energy form

2. Our pure/impure soul or ghosts

3. Our reincarnations

4. Or otherwise?

You may discuss these, logically or scientifically.

Best wishes.
Click to expand...
None in the reality of the physical world wherein you have the ability to know/experience same.

Indirect immortality is pointless for an individual. And to clarify, a clone of you will not have the same experiences as you, so that does not count either. The clone is only biologically you and only at the time it is first produced.

You really need to think this stuff out before posting so you do not waste our time in having to explain how and why you were wrong - especially since you will normally try to argue against the reality we explain to you.
 
fuelair said:
None in the reality of the physical world wherein you have the ability to know/experience same.

Indirect immortality is pointless for an individual. And to clarify, a clone of you will not have the same experiences as you, so that does not count either. The clone is only biologically you and only at the time it is first produced.
Click to expand...

Can be in some sense, Can not be in other sense. Whether Immortality depend upon only your memory not on your body & instincts? Whether clones do not have Instincts? Why clone can't be produced from clones?
 
Kumar said:
Welcome & thanks.

Yes it must be recognizable, logically or scientifically and directly or indirectly.



Yes, that may not be immortal but long terms unless some godlike work can be anticipated. What about clones & dead body remains? I think we got these intact even after many million years.
Click to expand...
I don't see why one would anticipate "godlike work." Clones are physical copies but do not possess the experience of the individual. I have a sheet of stamps. Every stamp is like every other, but this stamp is not that stamp. A thing is what it is, not what it is like. And no, we do not get dead body remains intact after many million years. There are fossils, but we cannot depend on them, and they are usually not the remains of an individual but the deposited minerals which have replaced them. And in any case, though that preservation is long indeed, it is not guaranteed that it will be forever.
Yes quite logical. True basis of all these will be needed to know in science. Logically, our prime energy form should be immortal/eternal. But how it can hold information of our individuality, will be a question mark. Soul/ghosts-- can it be some form of emitted or reflected spectrum of EMRs at the time of death? Reincarnation: can it be, emitted or reflective spectrum(say soul), merged in any other form of body and make energy basis to that? I think, such spectrum remain present in environment/universe eternally. ?
Click to expand...
Think what you will, but there's no evidence for it, and even if there were there's no evidence that either the preservation of energy or the recycling of souls through reincarnation preserves any aspect of individuality in a way that can be identified or that can have any useful meaning.

Imagine that a body rots and turns to dust, and other chemicals, scattered to the wind. Imagine that a super-duper-unreal but imaginable scientist sifts through the dust and using some super-duper-unknown but imaginable technical gee-whiz science identifes the particles, and correlates his findings to some super-duper-never was and never will be but imaginable database. Ah yes, this atom came from Kumar. This molecule was part of Kumar. And over here, look, this mote of dust came from Kumar. After a crazily extended, uselessly long, but imaginable period he has found all or most of Kumar. He has a pile of dust and atoms and bits extracted from trees and rutabagas and the gullets of fish that ate the worms that ate the microbes that ate the remains of Kumar, and there it is, the pile. Has he, in any useful, identifiable or meaningful way, found who and what Kumar was? Has he made Kumar immortal? Or just gathered up a bunch of the world.
 
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Kumar said:
1. Our prime energy form

2. Our pure/impure soul or ghosts

3. Our reincarnations
Click to expand...

Scientifically, these don't exist. We only exist materially. When the brain dies there is nothing left.
 
bruto said:
I don't see why one would anticipate "godlike work." Clones are physical copies but do not possess the experience of the individual. I have a sheet of stamps. Every stamp is like every other, but this stamp is not that stamp. A thing is what it is, not what it is like.
Click to expand...

It is matter of big debate, whether an individual with acquired memory is only that Individual OR also without acquired memory? Btw, how long cloning can continue of same Individual?

And no, we do not get dead body remains intact after many million years. There are fossils, but we cannot depend on them, and they are usually not the remains of an individual but the deposited minerals which have replaced them. And in any case, though that preservation is long indeed, it is not guaranteed that it will be forever. Think what you will, but there's no evidence for it, and even if there were there's no evidence that either the preservation of energy or the recycling of souls through reincarnation preserves any aspect of individuality in a way that can be identified or that can have any useful meaning.
Click to expand...

I am not sure, if cloning is possible, whether DNA in dead remains can also make copy? Whatever record of fossils we estimate that can be man be based on our reach but may be much more in actual. Moreover, we should be able to preserve those remains for infinate time. Anyway, 50 million years may also be somewhat immortality logically/grossly.

Imagine that a body rots and turns to dust, and other chemicals, scattered to the wind. Imagine that a super-duper-unreal but imaginable scientist sifts through the dust and using some super-duper-unknown but imaginable technical gee-whiz science identifes the particles, and correlates his findings to some super-duper-never was and never will be but imaginable database. Ah yes, this atom came from Kumar. This molecule was part of Kumar. And over here, look, this mote of dust came from Kumar. After a crazily extended, uselessly long, but imaginable period he has found all or most of Kumar. He has a pile of dust and atoms and bits extracted from trees and rutabagas and the gullets of fish that ate the worms that ate the microbes that ate the remains of Kumar, and there it is, the pile. Has he, in any useful, identifiable or meaningful way, found who and what Kumar was? Has he made Kumar immortal? Or just gathered up a bunch of the world.
Click to expand...

Mine remains may be bit dynamic and may remain Immortal or much consistent. So not good example.;)

Otherwise, We may, under current sense, just need one DNA which may not be a live being. I can't say if our energy spectrum or soul can also be possible for it. May be in future.:) Colour/energy should be like spirit of substance.
 
barehl said:
Scientifically, these don't exist. We only exist materially. When the brain dies there is nothing left.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but it may be a reason to take or gift death to many in name of mercy killing, unuseful life even without wish of dying person. Somewhat murder in real sense. But believing, whole individual is just brain and brain can not be regained or revived--can be bit odd. Still, don't we take care of our relatives with memory loss or in coma or become mad? It can take more time for revival(just feeling logically). Moreover stem cell techniques are also there, nearby. Probably, natural enhancement/stimulation of out god/nature gifted stem cell mechanism may also come. At least we can make his clones & children by Test tube technique. So we should wait till death. Death is not a thing for which we may be entitled to gift.

Souls and ghosts: put a last minute big photo of a person, near to death and after death and display in your house prominently, you may get some impression of these, probably.Reincarnations: to be understand, what can be real logic behind it, our last live spectrum transfer, our work, our children, by our remains or otherwise.
 
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Little 10 Toes said:
We are not immortal.

Define "gross" since you are not using the word correctly. Define "prime" since it does not make sense the way you are using it.
Click to expand...

Would you be immortal if you live in an infinitely old cyclical universe (i.e., big bang-big crunch-big bang...)
 
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