Attack of the Clones

[Mephisto]

Koreans Report Ease in Cloning for Stem Cells
By Gina Kolata
The New York Times

Friday 20 May 2005

South Korean researchers are reporting today that they have developed a highly efficient recipe for producing human embryos through cloning, and then extracting their stem cells.

Writing in the journal Science, the researchers, led by Dr. Woo Suk Hwang and Dr. Shin Yong Moon of Seoul National University, said they used their method to produce 11 human stem cell lines that were genetic matches of patients who ranged in age from 2 to 56.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/052005Z.shtml

-------------

For all the political and religious posturing on the part of the U.S. government, it seems that human cloning isn't simply going to be science fiction among scientists living in other countries.

I was wondering if anyone might outline some of the religious arguments against human cloning. I know that some must stem (no pun intended) from the abortion viewpoint, and that some might argue that a cloned human being wouldn't have a soul, but (other than overpopulating the earth) what exactly do opponents of stem-cell research (and cloning) fear will happen?

Mephisto

 

[Ipecac]

It seems to me that conservative America's main reason for being against cloning/stem cell research is so they remain consistent with their "life begins at conception" argument against abortion. If they allow "embryos" to be destroyed in stem cell research, they have to rationalize that with being against embryos being destroyed in abortion.

Separate from the whole abortion debate, I find it ridiculous that we would cut off an entire area of promising science because some think that those few cells produced in a lab have a soul.

 

[Gestahl]

For all the political and religious posturing on the part of the U.S. government, it seems that human cloning isn't simply going to be science fiction among scientists living in other countries.

I was wondering if anyone might outline some of the religious arguments against human cloning. I know that some must stem (no pun intended) from the abortion viewpoint, and that some might argue that a cloned human being wouldn't have a soul, but (other than overpopulating the earth) what exactly do opponents of stem-cell research (and cloning) fear will happen?

Mephisto

Well, in order to maintain a consistent, absolutist approach (the kind they love) toward abortion, you pretty much have to say life begins at conception. The only way to get stem cells is to abort feti (well, they aren't fetuses yet... more like blastocysts or something), or create embryos in the lab then kill them for the cells. They have to claim that all are alive and human beings if they are to remain consistent. And obviously, killing them (or stopping their development, same difference), would be a Bad Thing™.

The interesting thing is that this is the moral issue that is the least consistent in its support from the GOP. Many GOP people were and are still against the restrictions from 2001.

To add some more thread fodder:

Bush may threaten to veto new bill expanding stem cell research funding.

 

[Mephisto]

I agree

It seems to me that conservative America's main reason for being against cloning/stem cell research is so they remain consistent with their "life begins at conception" argument against abortion. If they allow "embryos" to be destroyed in stem cell research, they have to rationalize that with being against embryos being destroyed in abortion.

Separate from the whole abortion debate, I find it ridiculous that we would cut off an entire area of promising science because some think that those few cells produced in a lab have a soul.

Thanks for the info. I had never considered the whole reason behind both the abortion debate and the stem cell debate.

I did find it noteworthy that Nancy Reagan (and her son) spoke out against the Bush administration's stance on the issue.

You're right about crippling a promising science. I'm not a scientist, but I would imagine that stem cell research would be infinitely more beneficial than working with lab rats and white mice. Thanks again.

Mephisto

 

[Mephisto]

Re: Re: Attack of the Clones

Well, in order to maintain a consistent, absolutist approach (the kind they love) toward abortion, you pretty much have to say life begins at conception. The only way to get stem cells is to abort feti (well, they aren't fetuses yet... more like blastocysts or something), or create embryos in the lab then kill them for the cells. They have to claim that all are alive and human beings if they are to remain consistent. And obviously, killing them (or stopping their development, same difference), would be a Bad Thing™.

The interesting thing is that this is the moral issue that is the least consistent in its support from the GOP. Many GOP people were and are still against the restrictions from 2001.

To add some more thread fodder:

Bush may threaten to veto new bill expanding stem cell research funding.

Thanks for the link and the input. I just find it a stretch of the imagination to believe that an egg is a chicken. I wonder if the point would be lost if some people were served fried eggs in a shell and told it was southern fried chicken?

 

[Riddick]

reminds me of the time my dad came home with a brand new rolex. of course, it wasn't a "real" rolex.

if there were another copy of me running around, it would be a threat to society. one's enough. and i'm not going to harvest the bastard for a heart. or vulva, for that matter.

 

[Odin]

Which identical twin is the real one?

 

[Mephisto]

reminds me of the time my dad came home with a brand new rolex. of course, it wasn't a "real" rolex.

if there were another copy of me running around, it would be a threat to society. one's enough. and i'm not going to harvest the bastard for a heart. or vulva, for that matter.

I think you're right about the Rolex, the copy would never be the real thing (even if, as in cloning, it was exactly the same). The one area I see an ethical problem with is; if a clone is seen as a human without a soul, then how long before the religious fundies (who currently object to cloning) turncoat and begin human "crops" of important individuals (Dubya, the Pope, Rumsfeld) for the specific purpose of harvesting organs, limbs, eyes, etc?

Mephisto

 

[Mephisto]

Can you imagine the potential for espianoge?

Which identical twin is the real one?

I like your parallel between the very real world of identical twins and the potential for clandestine actions. Imagine if the sons or daughters of very important/influential people were cloned at birth and allowed to grow together. Their experiences, emotions, education and so forth would spring from a common well, and they would be privy to the same knowledge as their "brothers or sisters."

Of course this raises images of Dr. Evil and Mini-me, but just think what problems might arise if, say for instance, Osama Bin Laden had been cloned. We can't even find the original, and if there were five or ten more - then capturing one wouldn't affect his twisted mission at all. Political asassinations would become either non-existant or grow to a gigantic scale, and the idea of ten Saddam Hussein's simultaneously running a country would be terrifying indeed.

Mephisto

 

[Ipecac]

I'm suddenly unsure about the direction this thread is taking.

Cloning world leaders, evil or not, would not produce a duplicate. Clones can't be created as adults along with memories, attitudes, etc. A clone could only be produced as a baby which would then have to grow up and would certainly turn out differently than the original because of its life experiences.

This technology produces a group of cells which produce stem cells to be used in medical treatments. It would not create a living being with organs that would be harvested.

 

[Mephisto]

No, you're right

Cloning existant world leaders wouldn't result in the same person, BUT if (in a country where leaders were raised through a royal family - as in Saudi Arabia) infants were immediately cloned and raised together, they would share the same experiences as idential twins.

Of course, I'm using imagination and fictional foresight to visualize the implications of such a plan (the Gregory Peck movie - "The Boys From Brazil" comes to mind), and hopefully they'd be as unlikely as we like to believe.

 

[KelvinG]

I'm suddenly unsure about the direction this thread is taking.

It's taken a turn that, unfortunately, often happens when cloning stem cells is discussed. Too many people jump to the conclusion that cloning stem cells is only a small step away from cloning humans. In reality, it's not. That doesn't mean we should be non-chalant about the whole issue, but I wish more people would get their facts straight before they start assuming that soon an evil robot twin of themselves is going to running around if stem cell cloning is legal.

 

[Kitty Chan]

Well if any of them cared to watch any science fiction then the results would be clear, dont do it!!

btw IF they did clone humans beyond the nightmare already mentioned there is the slavery aspect, raised to harvest organs, new batch of second class citizens. As for soul Id have to think but pretty sure it would have one, especially if they used even one cell from someone, a connection is a connection.

If they figured out how to make their own cell not related to anything previous then maybe no soul.

Also, what about the sheep they cloned? I was suprised to hear someone else has cloned a horse and other animals. Are they actual clones?? or whats the scoop.

 

[Ipecac]

. As for soul Id have to think but pretty sure it would have one, especially if they used even one cell from someone, a connection is a connection.

If they figured out how to make their own cell not related to anything previous then maybe no soul.

Huh? A group of cells no bigger than what, a pinhead, a dime, grown in a lab has a soul?

Prove that souls even EXIST and then we'll consider whether or not their existence should stand in the way of new medical breakthroughs that could save millions of people.

 

[Ipecac]

If you pull out a bunch of hairs with attached hair follicles, those follicles are living cells. Do they have a soul?

 

[KelvinG]

If you pull out a bunch of hairs with attached hair follicles, those follicles are living cells. Do they have a soul?

Geez, I hope so. That way I can have all my hair back in the afterlife as each individual strand will be waiting for me in heaven.

 

[Kitty Chan]

The topic I was responding to was if a clone would have a soul (not if they exist, another topic)

Yes, the clone would have a soul because it would use previous cells, so its still part of the chain. Those that would argue along the line of no soul are forgetting that.

Clones are still part of the original.

In order for it to have no soul then someone would have to invent the cell (the beggining of life as I understand it) and then the creation would not be part of the original.

As for hairs and cells give me a break I dont know how to clone or the process, thus the second part of what I said. Im only speaking about the soul issue cause it came up.

eddited to add

and no a cell doesn not contain a soul as it does not have the rest of the human qualities. If your gonna talk soul then in that context think chain of existance if you will. In christianity God created everything. So what if man rearranged things into something else its still original creation. Which answers the soul question.

 

[Odin]

The topic I was responding to was if a clone would have a soul (not if they exist, another topic)

Yes, the clone would have a soul because it would use previous cells, so its still part of the chain. Those that would argue along the line of no soul are forgetting that.

-Would it have a new soul, or share the old one? Would the new soul split from the other?

In order for it to have no soul then someone would have to invent the cell (the beggining of life as I understand it) and then the creation would not be part of the original.

-What if someone was to create a composite cell from many people, would that have a soul?

As for hairs and cells give me a break I dont know how to clone or the process, thus the second part of what I said. Im only speaking about the soul issue cause it came up.

-Does a single human cell have a soul or does the soul grow with the developing human?

 

[Kitty Chan]

-Would it have a new soul, or share the old one? Would the new soul split from the other?

Thanks Odin, just trying to think this through. Jurys not in just in deliberations.

Let me tack on my soul defination. First it is the physical life of someone, second it is your thoughts, emotions who you are, then the third conterversial part the eternal.

I would think its a new life so should be a new soul, as even if the clone was raised with the original its still its own soul.

-What if someone was to create a composite cell from many people, would that have a soul?

interesting, Id have to say even if from many, still its own soul. Im thinking you and I had 2 parents. Maybe same scenario.

-Does a single human cell have a soul or does the soul grow with the developing human?

Id have to say no, if I look at my defination, no physical life, no thoughts, so nothing to become eternal. Until it grew with the rest of them into a human.

But since the cell was created (sorry think context) by God in the first place, it is still a part of the original Adam. Thats why I think I would have issue with christians on a high horse that is was Godless. Which would put me out on the step with Lewis. (other thread joke)

 

[Mephisto]

Interesting, Kitty

After reading your posts, I began to wonder about the soul thing myself. Looking at it from an Asian perspective and the idea of Chi, Ki, or Prana, I would have to conclude that even a clone would have a soul. Asian philosophies believe that "lifeforce" fills every living thing, most often through breath, and a breathing clone would certainly then have a soul, that is, if you equate lifeforce with a soul.

However, I think the Christian take on the soul would restrict the belief that a clone would have a soul because they believe that their soul is God-given and unique.

Of course, I am taking liberties with the stem-cell research topic as I don't believe an army of clones are going to march off the petri dish in a stem-cell research lab.

Mephisto