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Arguments Against Israel

Bombastic Penguin

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For the sake of skeptical inquiry, I am curious how would you respond to these?

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Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
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You did not made any attempt at presenting an argument. The wall of text you cited include many falsehoods and inaccuracies. Just clearing these will take time, and won't really add for a discussion.

Two examples:

Even the Israeli investigations found Ariel Sharon and the IDF responsible for the Sabra and Shatilla massacres.
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The Sabra and Shatilla massacre was perpetrated by Cristian militia allied with Israel, not by Israeli soldiers. Sharon was find indirectly responsible, since it was argued that he should have foreseen the massacre, and should have intervened to stop it.

Interestingly, the person responsible for the massacre served as a mister in several Lebanese governments, before being assassinated in 2002.
After the civil war ended in 1990 Hobeika became Minister for the Displaced. In October 1992 he was appointed Minister for Social Affairs and the Handicapped. He was reassigned to the Ministry of Electricity and Water in 1996, a period which saw massive power projects in Baddawi and Zahrani, Zouk And Baalbeck, and massive electrical grid installation and distribution throughout Lebanon, including the outlying areas still in turmoil with Israeli Forces in the south, hence the progress was too slow compared to the massive increase in the Megawatts needed, since little electricity projects were accomplished over 18 years of civil unrest, mainly because of the Israeli operation Grapes of Wrath. In 1998, General Emile Lahoud became president of Lebanon and appointed Selim Hoss Prime Minister.In 2000 Hobeika lost his parliament seat, due to Syrian active interference in the Polls against Hobeika.
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The Ben Gurion quote given here is false.

Hoax Quote
In addition, the MSU unabashedly used a fake quote to promote their Anti-Zionism Week. The publicity material included the following alleged quote attributed to former Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion: "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
Phil Schlesinger, a UC Irvine student, requested a source for the alleged statement. In a June 2 email, MSU representative Fatima Ibrahim claimed that Ben-Gurion made the statement to his General Staff in May 1948, and she cited the "Koenig Report," a leaked 1976 policy report by Israel Koenig, the Northern District Commissioner of Israel’s Interior Ministry.
In a second email that day, she advised Schlesinger to "read the memorandum closely and if you still can’t find it, you can tell me and I will bring the whole memorandum with the quote pointed out."
CAMERA provided Schlesinger with the "Koenig Report" which does not contain the alleged statement or any other by Ben-Gurion. When confronted with this information, Ibrahim revised her story:
first of all I am not going to spend time 1 week before finals to search for the quote (which is your responsibility)...the quote is a famous quote that can be looked up in many books such as "BEN-GURION, A BIOGRAPHY", by Michael Ben-Zohar [sic].

​
"Remember," she added, "that the Koenig Report was your initial suggestion, which is not where WE got it from."
CAMERA contacted Bar-Zohar, who confirmed that the "quote definitely isn’t" in his book. Schlesinger requested that the MSU retract the quote, but the group has so far refused
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It is sometimes attributed to one Israel Koenig

Commissioner Israel Koenig NEVER WROTE:

[SIZE=-1]We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.[/SIZE]
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I stopped here. I see no point in going through all this wall of text and fixing factual errors, falsehoods, and lies by omission. What's the point?
 
Then Parky has already won.....

Here's another:

I am aware it is more complex than that but when it boils down to it, the Jews just arrived on the Palestinians land after World war 2. They broke away from the commonwealth and started wars with the arabs and took even more land.

The Palestinians shouldn't have to do any compromising, it's their homes and land. Israel

just annexes more every two years or so!

Israel is more of an American foothold in the middle east than a genuine state : /.
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Doctor Evil said:
You did not made any attempt at presenting an argument. The wall of text you cited include many falsehoods and inaccuracies. Just clearing these will take time, and won't really add for a discussion.
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The position of neutrality is not always an easy road to take.
 
Bombastic Penguin said:
The position of neutrality is not always an easy road to take.
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Neutral as in not interested in having an opinion? Or objective, as in wanting to understand the history, with a minimum amount of bias? (We all have our biases.)

Anyway, I gave two examples which included a misleading argument and a flat out fabrication. I picked these two because I did not have to do any research to refute them. Going through all of this will take hours, and will be boring. What exactly you expect the posters here to do? Go through all this and find all the errors and inaccuracies?
 
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Putting the text into google finds that it seems to come from David Duke's website, or at least he quotes it approvingly.

'nuff said.

P.S.

To make clear, I'm not claiming "bombastic penguin" is a Duke supporter. He probably just wants to see what's wrong with such arguments, which might seem convincing at first blush.
 
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Skeptic said:
To make clear, I'm not claiming "bombastic penguin" is a Duke supporter. He probably just wants to see what's wrong with such arguments, which might seem convincing at first blush.
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I know they're wrong. I just trying to get a different perspective, and more information from others.

Kind of like how experts consult other experts.

If someone could reccomend some book on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and its history I would appreciate it.
 
Bombastic Penguin said:
If someone could reccomend some book on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and its history I would appreciate it.
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Looking for a book is a minefield, as different authors sometimes let their politics influence their conclusions. (By deciding that a certain fact is more important then another.)

Thus, I would recommend books written in a more dry (academic) style. Two books I have read, at least partially, are

* 1948 by Benny Morris, which covers the 1948 war (which actually started in late 1947 and ended in 1949).
* Israel by Martin Gilbert, which is a general history of Israel, and will touch on many of the events included in the rant you cited. (Some of the events have nothing to do with the Palestinians, such as the events leading to the 1967 war.)
 
bigjelmapro said:
Better books without the inflammatory cover and misleading quotes and dates:

The Arab-Israeli Conflict: The Palestine War 1948

And to counter the sensationalist claims of new historians like Morris, Pappe, Finkelstein, etc., which include some of the above falsified quotes:

Fabricating Israeli History: The New Historians (Israeli History, Politics and Society)
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by the looks of it they are books with a Zionist bias and no doubt offer no realistic info on the ill treatment of the Palestinians
 
bigjelmapro said:
Better books without the inflammatory cover and misleading quotes and dates:
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It provides two essays, one by a Jewish Historian, one by a Palestinian scholar, who both state their cases. Are you saying the Jewish historian is providing misleading quotes and dates?

As for the cover, my copy has a different picture, but are you claiming the picture on the edition Amazon is selling is not factual?
 
a_unique_person said:
It provides two essays, one by a Jewish Historian, one by a Palestinian scholar, who both state their cases. Are you saying the Jewish historian is providing misleading quotes and dates?
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Depends how you frame the quotes and dates.

As for the cover, my copy has a different picture, but are you claiming the picture on the edition Amazon is selling is not factual?
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So you're saying the cover isn't inflammatory and doesn't present the conflict in the most objective approach possible?
 
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