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Are there ANY valid pro-theistic arguments?

Lord Kenneth

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If so, theists sure like arguing with fallacy and invalid points... moreso than any valid arguments.

I've had more than enough "You can't prove God doesn't exist!", and such.
 
Dark Cobra said:

I've had more than enough "You can't prove God doesn't exist!", and such.
Click to expand...

Nor likewise can you prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that a being wih properties that differ depending on your interpretation exists. Properties that cannot be quantified, cannot be measured, and in many cases look, and act exactly the same ways as phenomena in nature that are already explained by science.

Great minds have tried....

DesCartes

1. I think therefore I am
2. I have a notion of infinity that I could never have learned through experience.
3. That notion must have been placed there by my creator.
4. That creator has a notion of inifinity which must mean he is not subject to any rules or limits we have come to know, and is therfore by our definition all powerful.
5. An all powerful being would not need to lie to me or create an illusion for my senses to perceive.
6. Therefore the creator is good.
7. My senses are not lying, and the world is not an illusion.

-ergo-

8. I think therefore I am.


St. Anselm

If God is that than which nothing greater can exist, then indeed god must exist. (Since the greatest thing which can exist must also have the property of existence.)


See if you can find the logical errors in those two gems.
 
I *like* to think that there is a part of the human mind that needs a divine being as some sort of complex Joseph Campbell style metaphor, and that it's much easier for many people to actually go the full distance and believe in god or whatever.

However, in thinking of myself as a "post-theistic gnostic" (because I like labels, and adding "post-" to anything makes me feel like I should be wearing a beret and turtleneck) I've realized that the key to any personal philosophy or method spirituality (another paranthetical aside, and one that I'm *SURE* has been covered in depth here on numerous occasions: Spirituality is completely seperate from any religious dogma) is *not* to argue about it. Agree to disagree, that sort of thing.

Personally, no, I can't prove the non-existence of god, because proving a negative is notoriously difficult. I also can't prove that I'm *not* a brain in a jar, being fed artificial stimulus from some supercomputer. Of course, I've never heard a good argument *for* the existence of any god, except that it would make dying a little more comfortable.
 
Gideon S said:
Of course, I've never heard a good argument *for* the existence of any god, except that it would make dying a little more comfortable.
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Yes, but once again science trumps theology....

It's called "morphine".
 
I have found that the world has some extremely beautiful places, many of which are completely inhospitable to me for any length of time. Finding beauty in such things seems unlikely to be a product of natural selection. Perhaps I was programmed by God to appreciate beauty that serves no pragmatic function?

Similarly I find some of the mathematics that describes the universe to be amazingly beautiful. However there is vast amounts of equally beautiful mathematics that (apparently) serves no function in describing anything but platonic universes. Why should this hairless ape take delight in such frivolity? Perhaps God is a mathematician, and wanted some of his creation to appreciate mathematics for its own sake.

When I wonder about such things I come close to an understanding of theism.
 
Beauty is subjective. I enjoy rainy days. What does subjective thought have to do with God's objective existence?
 
Men's nipples are necessary to insure that women have them...

It's a by-product to make sure the gene is passed on from both chromosomes.

We naturally shy away from certain smells because their origin could pose a health hazard to us.

Felines are more attracted to mates whose markings are symmetrical. Such markings indicate superior genes for longevity and health.

Your subjective appreciation of beauty may have purposes you have not yet discovered. Or perhaps it's a by-product or another necessary cerebral process.

At any rate it's certainly not an argument for theism.

I'm an audio engineer, and you know what, I can tell just by listening to a sound wave if it is an even multiple or factor of another wave. You can too. It's how we developed the half-tone scale, and it's what we think of as being "in harmony" or "off key."

Our appreciation of music is directly related to it's mathematical relationships, which, as your sig-line suggests, you're aware already.

edited for spelling
 
Tez said:
I have found that the world has some extremely beautiful places, many of which are completely inhospitable to me for any length of time. Finding beauty in such things seems unlikely to be a product of natural selection. Perhaps I was programmed by God to appreciate beauty that serves no pragmatic function?
Click to expand...

I think that what ppl find beautiful is down to a mixture between nature and nuture. The feeling associated when u experience something beautiful is a serious of chemical reactions. This process is either a bi-product of some other process, which evolved through natural selection, or the process itself evolved through natural selection because the gene(s) responsible for it was good at replicating, probably because the process increased the 'fitness' of the those with the gene as opposed to those without it.
 
Have you tried this over in Religion and Philosophy?

There are probably people more equipped to discuss it hanging out there.
 
I suggest moving this thread over to Religion and Philosophy. :)
 
*Zygar opens a gateway to hell to return the thread from whence it came
 
I think the best pro-theistic arguments are going to be psycho-social: the ego needs the comfort of a belief in God; religion fosters family coherence; historically, religion has helped instill obedience to a central authority necessary for group survival - those kinds of things.
 
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