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Are believers Unsane?

thaiboxerken

Penultimate Amazing
thaiboxerken
Joined
Sep 17, 2001
Messages
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Canadian author William Harwood, who wrote Mythology's Last Gods (Prometheus Books, 1992) asks whether the word "unsanity" appropriately describes the sloppy thinking in which religionists often indulge.


In the concluding novel of Arthur C Clarke's Odyssey series, he postulates a distinction between "insane" and "unsane". Essentially, the difference is that "insane" means neurologically programmed to be incapable of rational thinking and behaviour (whether such a condition actually exists is not immediately relevant), while "unsane" means able to put one's mind in neutral in order to engage in irrational thinking for the purpose of nullifying evidence that contradicts a security belief.
It is possible that not a single god-worshipper is insane, although Ruholla Khomeini and Pope Pius IX make such a postulation very tentative. But all may be unsane, since even those who could have been freed of god addiction if they had ever encountered the falsifying evidence, are able to rationalize that "when God does it, it's not evil".

A person who believes that the execution of every human who will ever live in reprisal for the crimes of his primeval ancestors would have been evil if Hitler did it, but is not evil when his god does it, may be unsane.

A person who believes that an omnipotent Master of the Universe sentences his imagined enemies to trillions of years of sadistic torture in a hell that even the current pope has repudiated, but is nonetheless a nice guy, may be unsane.

A person who believes that "Not a sparrow falls without his consent," (Mat. 10:29) but when a loved one is killed in a plane crash goes to a church to thank the imagined executioner for his omnibenevolence, may be unsane.


http://www.hanway.co.uk/unsanity.html
 
strawman.jpg
 
This reminds me of a conversation that I've had with my theistic father. He asked me if I thought that all people who believed in God were delusional. It was an obvious attempt to paint me into a corner, so I just answered him honestly and said "Yes, I do. There is no evidence for any god(s) and I think that believeing such things is just a rediculous as believing in Santa Clause of Mother Goose.

If being unsane means refusing the acknowledge to irrationality of your theistic belief then I'd have to say that most theists are not unsane. I think it's really an issue of not puting enough thought into it to realize just how rediculous it is.
 
Prometheus Books

Headed by the same person in charge of CSICOp and in charge of a secular humanism organization.

No conflict of interests, no bias, no sirreeee.

No thanks.

would have been evil if Hitler did it,

Took you one post, good job.

-Who
 
I think it's just the brain wiring. Some people are prone to believe in that, others not. Some people are paranoid, others insecure, others truly free...
 
Re: Re: Are believers Unsane?

Whodini said:
Prometheus Books

Headed by the same person in charge of CSICOp and in charge of a secular humanism organization.

No conflict of interests, no bias, no sirreeee.

No thanks.

would have been evil if Hitler did it,

Took you one post, good job.

-Who
Click to expand...

I'm a bit S-L-O, care to explain?

No sarcastic acidity intended.
 
Frostbite said:
I think it's just the brain wiring. Some people are prone to believe in that, others not. Some people are paranoid, others insecure, others truly free...
Click to expand...

Christanity and Islam are based in fear. If you are a follower trapped in their dogma - it would be insane to step away. Thus, from the outside looking in, you are unsane to stay.

Unless, of course, you convert to Hinduism....then your Karma can run over your dogma.

But then we'd have to put it in the trunk and take it to the hospital...and it would have to wear one of those cones on its head and have a set of wheels for back legs......

Just make sure you don't convert to Hinduism and everything will be fine.
 
Re: Re: Are believers Unsane?

Whodini said:
Prometheus Books

Headed by the same person in charge of CSICOp and in charge of a secular humanism organization.

No conflict of interests, no bias, no sirreeee.

No thanks.

would have been evil if Hitler did it,

Took you one post, good job.

-Who
Click to expand...

Putting a name and face to the "person" quote.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/home/kurtz/
http://www.csicop.org/
http://www.prometheusbooks.com/site/index.html

But hey, given Christian Publishers like Jack Chick to compare against, I'm sure the reactionary jump to "Hitler" comparisons was only to be expected, and evidence of the sort of scholarship we've come to expect from the religiously afflicted.
 
Whodini;

----
quote:
Headed by the same person in charge of CSICOp and in charge of a secular humanism organization.

No conflict of interests, no bias, no sirreeee.

No thanks.
----

You are the one who always talk against attacking the author instead of addressing his arguments (like in you scientology threads).
You could use your own advice, too. How about actually replying thaiboxerken's argument?


Thaiboxerken;
Although I mostly agree with the idea, I think that all humans could be "unsane" to some degree. I can't think of anybody being totally realistic all the time, we all need to delude ourselves from time to time. And we delude ourselves for many reasons, not only religion (love, for example, or bussines,money,etc...).
 
Buddyh, I was only refering to Whodini.
Anyway, I also think that Finella did not answer. Shouting "fallacy" seems to be the trend lately in the R&P forum. No arguments, just crying "strawman! ad hominem!". How bad...
Finella did not offer any argument. If I have to address the meaning of her picture reading her mind, I am sure I am going to misrepresent her position.

Thai's says:

"unsane: means able to put one's mind in neutral in order to engage in irrational thinking for the purpose of
nullifying evidence that contradicts a security belief. "

If anybody think this kind of behaviour (which is, as I said before, universal) is sane, then please offer arguments...
 
Fine, I'll reply to the issues.

But first I'll invent my own word, Overdumbs, to describe skeptics who aren't really skeptics. The Overdumbs are quite different from the Dumbs, because the Overdumbs should know better, but they suspend their rationality and replace it with pseudo-rationality.

-Who
 
Peskanov said:
Thai's says:

"unsane: means able to put one's mind in neutral in order to engage in irrational thinking for the purpose of
nullifying evidence that contradicts a security belief. "

If anybody think this kind of behaviour (which is, as I said before, universal) is sane, then please offer arguments...
Click to expand...

I think Finella and Buddy are calling the examples of unsanity the "strawman". It's not , as many believers exibit the exact behaviors cited.

I have to agree that most people exhibit a little unsanity, but it's my opinion that religions are based on it.

Oh, and I just ignore whodini because he just wants to insult and annoy me.
 
Whodini,
----
quote:
Fine, I'll reply to the issues.
But first I'll invent my own word, Overdumbs, to describe skeptics who aren't really skeptics. The Overdumbs are quite different from the Dumbs, because the Overdumbs should know better, but they suspend their rationality and replace it with pseudo-rationality.
----

"Overdumb". I like how it sounds. You should make a thread about it. :D
Now you can start replying to issues. Is it sane using irrational thoughs to gain self-confidence?

Thai,
----
quote:
I think Finella and Buddy are calling the examples of unsanity the "strawman". It's not , as many believers exibit the exact behaviors cited.
----

I would say some of your examples are on the extreme, but I also know the same religion can be perceived in very different ways. Most christians I know simply avoid thinking in the contradictions of their manichaeist religion. Others really keep the old jew vision of a punitive god. I have known both kind of believers.

----
quote:
I have to agree that most people exhibit a little unsanity, but it's my opinion that religions are based on it.
----

I agree. I see religion & mysticism as a negation of the pain and cruelty found in our wold, and as a negation of our shortcomings as humans. The only way to do so is through irrationality...
 
Hi all. I just joined the JREF forum and this is my first post. Hope I'm not repeating anything from earlier posts or other threads. If so, apologies.

Well, the barbs and tired Karma/Dogma jokes notwithstanding, I think Arthur Clarke's insane/unsane definitions described in Thaiboxerken's original post are clever delineations of vocabulary, and those words are helpful when describing the delusions of madness and/or the "passive delusions" of blind faith. But I don't know that arguing termonology and nuances of language addresses the important issues.

Is it enough to describe an axe murderer as insane, and a believer as unsane, and because we have such a good definition of 'unsane', simply leave it at that? I realize no one was suggesting we do that, but I didn't notice the posts moving beyond a discussion/argument about words.

The point is, it doesn't take a skeptic or an 'Overdumb' to realize that from unsanity springs much insanity. The events of the last few decades in the Middle East make that point all too clear, as do any other religious movement or incident throughout recorded history. (I don't even have to mention 9/11/01, Jonestown, or Jerry Falwell by name.)

I mean, does it really matter what word we use to describe theists when as a collective, their track record for being sane is less than stellar? In fact, it downright sucks.

I think the word unsane is a harmless if not adequate way to describe a believer. But let's not lose sight of the fact that whether insane or unsane, the bearer of either moniker is touched deeply by irrationality. And worse yet, the potential to be dangerous lurks amid that irrationality.
 
I strongly suggest the book, "The corruption of reality," by John Schumaker (Prometheus Press). It directly addresses this issue.

Basically he demonstrates how being delusional is healthy and evolutionarily effective. So really, it's us atheists who are unsane.

Modern life does not mesh well with our evolutionary heritage in many ways.
 
I dont think its a sanity deficiency in most cases, although it undoubtedly is in some (too many?).

Mostly its just intellectual lethargy. Being too damn lazy/scared to challenge your most deep-seated beliefs.
 
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