Anyone know about native american ceremony?

darren

New Blood
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Sep 26, 2003
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10
First, thanks to those who answered my leg-lengthening question. I bought Randi's book "Faith Healers" and its got info in there. Thank you kindly.

Second, my brother teaches indian ceremony and is heavily involved in participating and leading various rituals. Well, I have been explaining to him all kinds of skeptical-isms for a year or two now. He dismisses most of the things I have said. At our last meeting (we see each other quite rarely) he admitted that he attended a very rare ceremony and was thinking of me and decided to watch with a skeptic eye, best he could.

This ritual entails the elder (and yes, an elderly man...maybe 75 or older) gets tied up and invites spirits into the room. The lights go out, and dozens of people witness noises (like a gourd rattling) and crazy lights dashing about. Seems simple to guess on this one. Lights come on, the guy is unitied.

Well, my brother said he watched at the last one, and they were sitting in a teepee and it was sooooo full of people it was impossible to move more than an inch. The old man and two handlers came in with no space to move except to sit down. He was tied, and they sat. Lights went out. He said the wierd ball of light made sound, and it whizzed around so fast and so crazy that he was thinking "that could kill someone". He even put his hands over his crotch for fear that the other rattling noise that moved down and towards him and between his legs could possibley hit him in the nuts. When the lights came up, he said he was astonished, because no one could move in there, and the place where the lights appeared to be where no where near where the handlers could have done anything.

Of course a lot of info is missing, but he made it sound like he was looking for signs of fraud but was genuinely baffled at there even being a possibility, physically. Of course his opinion is suspect, but still... I could benefit from knowing what anyone else knows on the subject. I can offer guesses, but I am sure native ceremony of this kind has been witnessed before. Perhaps some of you have some words on this? I'd really like to be able to say "hey, next time, watch for the guy in the green shorts" or at the very least "look for a wire..." or "try to sit behind him..." or something. Or maybe even "it's not a real bunny and the blood was fake" I don't care.
 
darren said:
First, thanks to those who answered my leg-lengthening question. I bought Randi's book "Faith Healers" and its got info in there. Thank you kindly.

Second, my brother teaches indian ceremony and is heavily involved in participating and leading various rituals. Well, I have been explaining to him all kinds of skeptical-isms for a year or two now. He dismisses most of the things I have said. At our last meeting (we see each other quite rarely) he admitted that he attended a very rare ceremony and was thinking of me and decided to watch with a skeptic eye, best he could.

This ritual entails the elder (and yes, an elderly man...maybe 75 or older) gets tied up and invites spirits into the room. The lights go out, and dozens of people witness noises (like a gourd rattling) and crazy lights dashing about. Seems simple to guess on this one. Lights come on, the guy is unitied.

Well, my brother said he watched at the last one, and they were sitting in a teepee and it was sooooo full of people it was impossible to move more than an inch. The old man and two handlers came in with no space to move except to sit down. He was tied, and they sat. Lights went out. He said the wierd ball of light made sound, and it whizzed around so fast and so crazy that he was thinking "that could kill someone". He even put his hands over his crotch for fear that the other rattling noise that moved down and towards him and between his legs could possibley hit him in the nuts. When the lights came up, he said he was astonished, because no one could move in there, and the place where the lights appeared to be where no where near where the handlers could have done anything.

Of course a lot of info is missing, but he made it sound like he was looking for signs of fraud but was genuinely baffled at there even being a possibility, physically. Of course his opinion is suspect, but still... I could benefit from knowing what anyone else knows on the subject. I can offer guesses, but I am sure native ceremony of this kind has been witnessed before. Perhaps some of you have some words on this? I'd really like to be able to say "hey, next time, watch for the guy in the green shorts" or at the very least "look for a wire..." or "try to sit behind him..." or something. Or maybe even "it's not a real bunny and the blood was fake" I don't care.


Very hard to tell from a third hand account but I do have some questions.

How was the old guy tied? Was he standing or sitting? Who did the tying? It's pretty easy to slip restraints, even ones that look realistic. All you need is a pocket fisherman and a gourd with flourescent "glow-in-the-dark" paint to get rattling, glowing, orb that whizzes by. Another gourd on a string can be gently lowered and rattled effectively. If everybody was sitting and the old guy was standing, this is the way I guess it could be done.

This could be dangerous but the only way to know for sure is to go yourself and catch the glowing orb. Or bring a flashlight and shine it on the guy while the orb is in motion.
 
Standard seance stuff. So the old guy came in with two accomplices? How obvious is that? Anyone else in the crowd could have been in on it as well.

"Weird ball of light" that moved around? Glow-in-the-dark yoyo? Laser pointer?

Since the situation is so poorly controlled, pretty much anything could have been pulled off.Now witnessing it with night vision goggles might give you a different story.
 
(Unlimbering knowlege that has not been used in some time)

Reports of this type of phenomenon are very common among the Lakota/Dakota/Ooglalla peoples.

Having said that, they have no "ceremony" that revolves around them, they are reported as secondary and unexpected manefestations while praying.

What purpose would such a ceremony have? Chalrlitans and con-men may be using such things to convince the gullible, but a ceremony to produce rattles and lights?

If you had a God that you truly believed in, would you waste it's time that way? Most Indian people would not dare.

I have also seen and experienced things in my life I could not explain. The question your brother needs to concentrate on is ... so what?

If his ceremonies produce pedictible, verifyable, unexplainable results, he should have himself scientifically tested, then make a mint. If not, he should begin to rethink the purpose behind them.

I am still a "closet believer", and I'm still forming my views on many things. But as a JREFer said to me when I first got here:
If the existance of a thing is indistinguishable from its non-existance, then that thing does not exist.

Whomp!
 

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