• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Another Mineta thread

Boone 870

Critical Thinker
Boone 870
Joined
Mar 18, 2007
Messages
252
I know this subject has been beaten to death, but there are some new documents available to help solidify the fact that Mineta was referring to Flight 93 and not Flight 77.

AAL77.com has a xls document that contains the flight plans for United 93. The document shows that United 93's course was updated from Newark-San Francisco to Hagerstown-Reagan National at 10:08 a.m.

Google Earth image with a straight line between DCA and HGR:
9.jpg


Add to that, Mineta's 2002 MSNBC interview in which he stated that Monte Belger was trying to pinpoint the aircraft's location as it was tracked toward Washington.

So I said, "Monte, can you see it, and where is it in relationship to the ground?"

He said, "Well, that's difficult to really determine. I would guess it's somewhere between Great Falls and National Airport, coming what they call the DRA, the down river approach."

And so then the person came in and said, "Mr. Vice President, the plane's ten-miles out," and so I said, "Monte, where is it?" and he said, "Well, I'm not really sure but I'd be guessing somewhere maybe between the USA Today building and, and National Airport."
911myths.com
Click to expand...

Here is Flight 93's TSD path with Belger's four reference points:

5.jpg


It's obvious that Mineta was describing UA93 and not AA77.

I made a youtube video with more details and air traffic control recordings if anyone's interested.

 
It's probably worth explaining to people what you mean by "course update".

The FAA has a system called the Traffic Situational Display (TSD) which is a map of all logged flight paths. The various centres can update this display when they change an aircraft's flight path for whatever reason.

The TSD is an independent system which is not updated by radar data, nor is it based on radar data.

The data from the TSD is used in the central operations centre and also by the USSS, who do not have direct access to radars.

On 9/11, because aircraft were disappearing from radars, some centres started to use the TSD to track flights, however obviously this is problematic when flights are changing course. It was also used by centres to monitor aircraft outside their airspace. A false second track was created for AA11, which was the cause of the phantom AA11 report.

Meanwhile, UA93 was not cleared from the TSD after it crashed, so the USSS continued to track its progress towards DC.

What Boone 870 is presenting above is the TSD track for UA93 which remained in the system well after the aircraft crashed.
 
Good work Boone870! Another myth bites the dust.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|135632.5|UAL93 117|FSP 06F |O ENR | IHD 06 AML EWR./.IHD323021 HGR |
| | | | | UAL93 027 14 350 350 DCA 1527 |
| | | | | 009 040 |
| | | | | L/B752/E 1358 |
| | | | | T473 G501 |
| | | | | 06 DIA IA+ |
| | | | | 117 01 HGR |NRP WNA DC+ |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Last edited:
gumboot said:
It's probably worth explaining to people what you mean by "course update".
Click to expand...

Yes, it is worth mentioning and thanks for doing so.

Here's the document I referenced in my video:

Justice.jpg


I'm going to derail my own thread and point out that she wrote, "We were given a data block with which to track UAL 93."

If this data block was attached to the primary radar track of UAL 93, would it continue to coast track after the aircraft was lost on primary radar?

A coast track that was allowed to continue for five minutes could explain some of the reports of a crash near Camp David if it suddenly disappeared from the display screen and was replaced by the updated flight plan.
 
hi boone, I'm unable to see your video, can you please say me (if you can) where did you get the very interesting document above?
thanks
 
An additional bit of info that I picked up from reading Philip Shenon's The Commission is that Scooter Libby had this note on his notepad at 10:15-10:18:

Aircraft 60 miles out, confirmed as hijack--engage? VP? Yes. JB [Joshua Bolten]: Get President and confirm engage order.
Click to expand...

Indeed, Shenon's focus is that Cheney did not have authority to order the shootdown of Flight 93. This may be why the young marine was so determined to get repeated confirmations of the order.
 
Brainster said:
An additional bit of info that I picked up from reading Philip Shenon's The Commission is that Scooter Libby had this note on his notepad at 10:15-10:18:



Indeed, Shenon's focus is that Cheney did not have authority to order the shootdown of Flight 93. This may be why the young marine was so determined to get repeated confirmations of the order.
Click to expand...

Yes, which is why after confirmation was obtained and the marine came in and tried to get confirmation again, Cheney growled at him.
 
911files said:
Good work Boone870! Another myth bites the dust.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|135632.5|UAL93 117|FSP 06F |O ENR | IHD 06 AML EWR./.IHD323021 HGR |
| | | | | UAL93 027 14 350 350 DCA 1527 |
| | | | | 009 040 |
| | | | | L/B752/E 1358 |
| | | | | T473 G501 |
| | | | | 06 DIA IA+ |
| | | | | 117 01 HGR |NRP WNA DC+ |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...


Thanks 911files, but I need to point out an error I made. The 135632.5 timestamp on the flight plan slipped by me when you first posted it. I originally claimed that it was updated at 10:08 a.m. and that is clearly wrong.


Flight Explorer's Flight 93 animation shows that the flight plan was changed before it crashed:

flight93DCA.gif



And this(PDF) Flight 93 timeline also supports a 9:56 update.

flightplanupdate.jpg



The 10:08 time could be a Center to Center handoff, but I can't say for sure.
 
Nice work Boone. It's funny how all the 9/11 evidence seems to suggest the same thing. It's almost like it's trying to tell us something...
 
im having a hard time understanding this. flight 93 crashed at at 1003. flight 77 crashed at 0937. thats a 26 min difference. if a plane is going 500 mph, then thats a good 200 + mile difference.
from wiki-
"The hijacking on Flight 93 began at 09:28.[30] By this time, Flights 11 and 175 had already crashed into the World Trade Center and Flight 77 was within minutes of striking the Pentagon. The hijackers on these three flights had waited no more than 30 minutes to commandeer the aircraft, most likely striking after the seat belt sign had been turned off and cabin service had begun.[19] It is unknown why the hijackers on Flight 93 decided to wait approximately 46 minutes to begin the assault."

at what time did flight 93 get put on the TSD?
 
Senenmut said:
im having a hard time understanding this. flight 93 crashed at at 1003. flight 77 crashed at 0937. thats a 26 min difference. if a plane is going 500 mph, then thats a good 200 + mile difference.
Click to expand...
Yes, but I don't understand what you're asking. 26 minutes is indeed more than 200 miles when you're going 500 mph. So, uh, what's your question?


at what time did flight 93 get put on the TSD?
Click to expand...

Boone 870's OP says it was done at 10:08.
 
at what time did flight 93 get put on the TSD?
Click to expand...

Flight 93 was on the TSD for the duration of its flight plus an extra 25 minutes. The flight plan was changed from San Francisco to Reagan National Airport at 9:56.
 
Boone 870 said:
Flight 93 was on the TSD for the duration of its flight plus an extra 25 minutes. The flight plan was changed from San Francisco to Reagan National Airport at 9:56.
Click to expand...

im reading the time frame in eastern time (from wiki). is your 956 in eastern time?? i still cant follow your timeline??
 
Senenmut said:
im reading the time frame in eastern time (from wiki). is your 956 in eastern time?? i still cant follow your timeline??
Click to expand...

It's 1356 GMT from the FAA docs. GMT is normally five hours ahead of eastern time, but summer time was in effect, so GMT to EDT is four hours off. 1356 GMT = 0956 EDT.
 
Senenmut said:
im reading the time frame in eastern time (from wiki). is your 956 in eastern time?? i still cant follow your timeline??
Click to expand...

Hence, that is why GMT is used in aviation. The plane (UAL93) crashed at 14:03. The destination was changed at 13:56. The flight plan projected an arrival time at DCA at 14:28. If you watch the local news coverage (around 9:28 EDT) you will see that the Pentagon area is evacuated again in response to this "arrival time". In other words, the flight plan was generating a "target" on the TSD's used by FAA HQ (and perhaps by the Secret Service) which had people responding although the plane it represented had crashed at 14:03.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom