Anger upon athiesm conversion.

[CBVan]

In Dr. Dawkins Q & A session after his reading at Lynchburg (which can be found on youtube.com or here, at his website, Dawkins gets asked about anger people experience upon an athiesm conversion, among other things. I think this is a good point to discuss.
I know I was angry after my conversion, but not as much initially. My anger was unfocussed then, more anger at the world for what I percieved as widespread stupidity.
Now, I am extremely angry, due to the widespread hypocrisy I percieve in doctrine and standards. I suppose that it is more aimed at Xianity, but that is only because I was raised Xian and (living in the US) it is the most widespread.
This could be entirely due to personal experiences, and I would like to see what other people have experienced after a conversion.
http://richarddawkins.net/

 

[pchams]

I can't really claim a conversion, as I really never believed the Sunday school stuff, but I don't understand why you should be angry.
Whomever guided you into the xtian stuff probably really believed it was best for you. There is no sense in being angry with them. They just haven't come to the rational conclusion that you have.
Perhaps you should focus on the happiness you must feel after having the yoke of religion removed from your life.

 

[AgingYoung]

CBVan,

...Now, I am extremely angry, due to the widespread hypocrisy I percieve in doctrine and standards...

This is something I can't quite understand. If there's no interaction between you and a hypocrite why do you care what the hypocrite believes?

Then if there is some exchange between you and the hypocrite why would their theology matter to you? For instance if someone steals from you why is it your perspective is different if they claim to be a christian or an atheist? Why should the thief’s theology matter to you?

Gene

 

[l0rca]

I too was extremely angry about the naivety and dogma my parents passed down to me without question or encouragement for critical thinking. Those principals gave in me a reverence for faith, and a large lack of logic. From then on I decided to give my kin the caution to be critical of their beliefs, and vocal of my atheism to my young brother and sister. But every time I do, I anger my mother; and my father, while this information has been kept from him, has disowned me for lesser reasons.

In my opinion, your anger is much justified.

 

[RandFan]

I was never angry. I was somewhat emotional. I felt disconected but I think that had to do with the fact that nearly all of my freinds were at church and I didn't see them so much after.

 

[Aerik]

RandFan, I don't think we're talking about anger at the prospect that there is no god, but anger at what atrocities, lies, and anti-civility we see being done in the name of a god we now know does not exist. That's different.

When I saw Dawkins speak on the God Delusion at the Lied Center, Kansas University, Lawrence, Kansas, this very subject came up. He decided to ask us, first explaining that his de-conversion was very mild, "Is it true, that once you admit to yourselves that you are atheists, you feel a righteous anger at all the evil done in the name of religion?" Our reply was a loud, raucous YES!

 

[RandFan]

RandFan, I don't think we're talking about anger at the prospect that there is no god, but anger at what atrocities, lies, and anti-civility we see being done in the name of a god we now know does not exist. That's different.

When I saw Dawkins speak on the God Delusion at the Lied Center, Kansas University, Lawrence, Kansas, this very subject came up. He decided to ask us, first explaining that his de-conversion was very mild, "Is it true, that once you admit to yourselves that you are atheists, you feel a righteous anger at all the evil done in the name of religion?" Our reply was a loud, raucous YES!

I actually understood the point. I thought I might abuse readers with how I felt. I didn't feel anger. Period. Perhaps I should have simply left it at that.

An aside, it's an excellent video. I've watched it 3 times now. Dawkins is incredible. I envy your having seen him in person.

 

[pchams]

I too was extremely angry about the naivety and dogma my parents passed down to me without question or encouragement for critical thinking. Those principals gave in me a reverence for faith, and a large lack of logic. From then on I decided to give my kin the caution to be critical of their beliefs, and vocal of my atheism to my young brother and sister. But every time I do, I anger my mother; and my father, while this information has been kept from him, has disowned me for lesser reasons.

In my opinion, your anger is much justified.

I don't understand this anger. Surely they had your best interests, in their eyes, at heart.
As for the anger people have referred to in this thread, as espoused by Mr. Dawkins, surely there is enough unethical wrong-doing besides the religous one to just see this as one more blight.
Anger is a rash emotion which blinds us to rational thought.
Less is better IMO

 

[CBVan]

CBVan,
This is something I can't quite understand. If there's no interaction between you and a hypocrite why do you care what the hypocrite believes?

Then if there is some exchange between you and the hypocrite why would their theology matter to you? For instance if someone steals from you why is it your perspective is different if they claim to be a christian or an atheist? Why should the thief’s theology matter to you?

Gene

Hmm. An interesting point. I suppose I am angry because I now fell that all that time that I spent on religion because of them was wasted.
As for pchams, I am not angry for the same reasons as L0cra. I am angry at the ignorance many Xians display about their own religion. I am angry at the intolerance relgions have lead to, historically. I am angry about things like the Crusades and the Jihads.
I would propose that intentions, in this case, do not matter. I wonder how often do you get talked at by fundamentalist Xians? Anger is almost the only response this slightly-less-foolish-than-average ape can come up with.

 

[joobz]

It is an interesting that anger enters the picture. I remember reading about C.S. Lewis describing his time as an atheist, he felt an anger against toward god for not existing. A contridictory viewpoint, but one that i think may presist in a transition from believing and not believing.

ALso, I wonder if there is anger that exists just as a result of the 5 stages of grief. Has any one's transition into being athiest been also associated with moments of denial, bargining, depression?

 

[pchams]

CBVan,
I understand your anger, but I find it less than useful.
At times, anger may play a purpose, such as self-preservation, but otherwise, it is a detriment, in my opinion.
As an atheist, actually, an anti-religionist, I understand your feelings.
My intention is to create a less superstitious society, but not at the expense of personal freedom. It is best created through education, and anger has no place there.

 

[l0rca]

I don't understand this anger. Surely they had your best interests, in their eyes, at heart.
As for the anger people have referred to in this thread, as espoused by Mr. Dawkins, surely there is enough unethical wrong-doing besides the religous one to just see this as one more blight.
Anger is a rash emotion which blinds us to rational thought.
Less is better IMO

Of course less is better in my opinion too. And while you may have some sort of faculty that can quickly switch off anger whenever it is not the most reasonable thing to feel, I do not. I was raised in a dogmatic environment, and now that I am an atheist, I am told not to speak about faith with my brother and sister. The dogmatic environment made it very difficult and emotional for me to admit a godless world to myself, and I'm concerned about the trouble my kin will have growing up as well. But despite my concerns, my opinion is not allowed, and I was quickly shut up whenever I brought it up.

If you still don't understand why this would make a person angry, I suppose I could map out the logic of what makes a person angry and connect it to irrationally being told to be quiet as your brother and sister have beliefs strongly influenced on them. Perhaps you should also keep in mind that Muslim extremists think 9/11 was for the best as well; just because you fully understand your opposition does not extinguish the anger you find in their actions.

 

[CBVan]

CBVan,
I understand your anger, but I find it less than useful.
At times, anger may play a purpose, such as self-preservation, but otherwise, it is a detriment, in my opinion.
As an atheist, actually, an anti-religionist, I understand your feelings.
My intention is to create a less superstitious society, but not at the expense of personal freedom. It is best created through education, and anger has no place there.

I don't make the claim that anger is useful. I simply accept it as the first response my monkey mind can come up with. If more people were educated about the bible, (i.e. actually read the thing) then more people would be athiests, I think.

 

[Dogdoctor]

It's probably similar to the reaction some people get when they break up with their girl/boy friends or wives/husbands. They were together because it was the best thing but then once they break up it becomes the worst thing. They supposedly loved the person at one time then switched to hate. I am sure it is all about hating yourself for believing in religion/man/woman which you have since figured out wasn't all you made it out to be. But you can't deal with hating yourself so you transfer the feelings to the object of your despise.

 

[blutoski]

I don't make the claim that anger is useful. I simply accept it as the first response my monkey mind can come up with. If more people were educated about the bible, (i.e. actually read the thing) then more people would be athiests, I think.

Interesting you should mention that... I was just reading my copy of "I Was Wrong," (Jim Bakker). He says something similar: that if people actually read the bible, they'd be better people. This book is fascinating, because it's an atonement of not just his earlier 'career' and crimes, but also a repudiation of his Prosperity Theology, and materialism in Christianity in general. Essentially, he claims that he had not really read much of the bible until prison, at which point he did a complete readthrough and took some comparative religion courses.


As to your question about anger... I have observed this in many 'converts'. It's not documented enough for me to say that there are Kubler-Ross "stages", but I can't help but believe this from the examples I've seen.

Losing a faith can create a loss analogous to experiencing the death of a loved one. In the case of Christianity, in a way, you lose your best friend. Taken from you by the Angle of Reason instead of the Angel of Death.

So, why not go through the stages? Denial, Anger, Grief, Bargaining, Acceptance.

 

[clarsct]

Many people go through the bargaining stage with God, witness the Drunkard's Remorse:
Dear Lord, if you get me through this day, with this hangover, I swear I will never do this again!!


And the next day, he's back on the barstool.


I think with religion it may run:
Bargaining, Denial, Anger, Grief, Acceptance.


"I'll believe in you and go to Church if you'll just let <some positive result> happen."

"If you don't do <such and such>, My Lord, I shall no longer believe in you."

"You don't exist, you don't care about me!!"

"◊◊◊◊ God! F'kin preachers"

"Man....what the hell am I doing with my life? What HAVE I been doing with my life? My time has been WASTED!! and FOR WHAT?!"

"Well, ok, It's just me now.....I guess I'll have to clean up my own act from now on."


Seems about right, from what I've seen. I, fortunately, was spared most of that, as I questioned things right away. I remember questioning the idea of 'bad language' in fourth grade. I was kicked out of a Sunday School at about age 12 for asking questions, the wrong ones. "So HOW big was Noah's Ark?"


I could be wrong, but this is a progression I have observed....

 

[Antiquehunter]

I'm not sure anger is the right word. I felt (and feel) frustration towards and a desire to amend people's irrational beliefs. But this isn't 'anger'. I'm motivated to try and make a difference - but this isn't about atheism - I'm motivated to try and make a difference in any number of areas.

So - does a conversion to atheism result in a desire to be 'active' in the atheist community? Perhaps, in some. Anger in others? Sure. But I'm not sure if its a commonality among all those who (don't) see the light.

-AH.

 

[slingblade]

I think with religion it may run:
Bargaining, Denial, Anger, Grief, Acceptance.


"I'll believe in you and go to Church if you'll just let <some positive result> happen."

"If you don't do <such and such>, My Lord, I shall no longer believe in you."

"You don't exist, you don't care about me!!"

"◊◊◊◊ God! F'kin preachers"

"Man....what the hell am I doing with my life? What HAVE I been doing with my life? My time has been WASTED!! and FOR WHAT?!"

"Well, ok, It's just me now.....I guess I'll have to clean up my own act from now on."



I could be wrong, but this is a progression I have observed....

Yep. Pretty much nailed it for me. I had a couple of earlier additional steps, but what you do have, I went through.

 

[Zygar]

Yep. Pretty much nailed it for me. I had a couple of earlier additional steps, but what you do have, I went through.

Likewise. I think that it would be fairly unusual to go through a deconversion without experiencing each of these steps, even if they are not the complete set of steps for each individual.

 

[Dogdoctor]

Likewise. I think that it would be fairly unusual to go through a deconversion without experiencing each of these steps, even if they are not the complete set of steps for each individual.

As usual I am the exception.