Ancient gliders powered via catapult

NetPen

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I vaguely recall a claim somewhere that the Ancient Egyptians, or rather that ancient extraterrestrials showed them, used catapults to give gliders flight. Now, I'm pretty sure that a catapult used to hurl stones is nowhere near as close as a catapult used to send a glider in the sky (I think they're called "slingshots") but if anyone knows what I'm talking about please refresh me. Where did this claim originate? Is it true (at least before the Medieval age) to some extent, if any? What are the strength(s)/flaw(s) with this claim (aside from perhaps maybe the obvious).

Thanks in advance.
 
NetPen said:
I vaguely recall a claim somewhere that the Ancient Egyptians, or rather that ancient extraterrestrials showed them, used catapults to give gliders flight. Now, I'm pretty sure that a catapult used to hurl stones is nowhere near as close as a catapult used to send a glider in the sky (I think they're called "slingshots") but if anyone knows what I'm talking about please refresh me. Where did this claim originate? Is it true (at least before the Medieval age) to some extent, if any? What are the strength(s)/flaw(s) with this claim (aside from perhaps maybe the obvious).

Thanks in advance.
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I am not sure, but the idea of ancient Egyptians flying using catapults sounds like one of sthose stupid, idiotic, lies from Erich von Daniken (I hope that I spelled his name right). He was the person who wrote full of crap book The Chariots of the Gods. He has written other crappy books as well.

However, there are other people who have claimed that ancient Egyptians had flying tools. In fact, I recall someone (sorry, but I do not remember the name) who said that ancient Egyptians used giant kites to lift the massive stones that were used in pyramid construction. And the only evidence this person had for his claim was that the Ankh symbol looked something like a mountianeering belaying device, therefore it must be soem sort of tool for controlling these giant kites.

Ugh!
 
NetPen said:
I vaguely recall a claim somewhere that the Ancient Egyptians, or rather that ancient extraterrestrials showed them, used catapults to give gliders flight. Now, I'm pretty sure that a catapult used to hurl stones is nowhere near as close as a catapult used to send a glider in the sky (I think they're called "slingshots") but if anyone knows what I'm talking about please refresh me. Where did this claim originate? Is it true (at least before the Medieval age) to some extent, if any? What are the strength(s)/flaw(s) with this claim (aside from perhaps maybe the obvious).

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

Probably derives from this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqqara_Bird


In theory there is no particular reason why any early civilisation couldn't have produced a glider however the limited egyptian access to wood makes them a poor candidate. In general while most civilisation would have had the materials to do so it would have been an expensive undertaking and with very little purpose. Of the various experimenters we do have records of (mostly european monks) they made the mistaking of trying to copy birds.

Claims of china having man lifting kites are often repeated but while they should have been able to build them I'm not completely conviced they did.
 
For lifting kites, the surface would have been to be immense for some of those stones, thus the size, thus ensuring enough structural rigidity with just wood would be an insane challenge.
 
HansMustermann said:
For lifting kites, the surface would have been to be immense for some of those stones, thus the size, thus ensuring enough structural rigidity with just wood would be an insane challenge.
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Let's do some math. Unfortunately, I remember a few of the key numbers in English units.

If we assume that the kite can get a lift coefficient of 0.7 (which is pretty good, considering that kites are normally operated in a completely stalled condition), and assuming we can build the kite and associated ropes and lift slings for ~0.5 lb/sq ft, then in a 30 mph wind, to lift an 80 ton block, we'd need a square kite that's 380 feet across.

So, yes, I concur with both "immense" and "insane challenge."
 
I imagine Egyptians had small toy like gliders shaped like birds but I'm sure the ancients never flew in one.

The ancients may have flown in hot air balloons in south America to make the Nazca lines but even thats conjectural.
 
It wasn't the Egyptians, it was the Romans. Those huge ships they built had catapults that launched gliders. After the Carthaginian attack of the Harbor at Augusta, Prelate Numquid Parum had a Nemi ship sail towards Carthage. They were spotted by the Carthaginians and had to launch their gliders early. Imagine the terror of the citizens of Carthage as the light weight, wooden Roman gliders bounced harmlessly off the 10 foot thick stone walls of the city.
There were Romans, Carthaginians, Nemi ships, and catapults. That's enough for confirmation of the rest, ain't it?
 
Wolrab said:
It wasn't the Egyptians, it was the Romans. Those huge ships they built had catapults that launched gliders. After the Carthaginian attack of the Harbor at Augusta, Prelate Numquid Parum had a Nemi ship sail towards Carthage. They were spotted by the Carthaginians and had to launch their gliders early. Imagine the terror of the citizens of Carthage as the light weight, wooden Roman gliders bounced harmlessly off the 10 foot thick stone walls of the city.
There were Romans, Carthaginians, Nemi ships, and catapults. That's enough for confirmation of the rest, ain't it?
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Hmmm . . . have we found any broken wood near the ruins of Carthage? That would prove it!
 
No historian here, but my very first thoughts...

Egypt is hardly a backwater of the ancient world. Anyone and everyone, knew of, passed through or traded with (or were slaves of) them.

Since no one has yet posted writings of a few of those other nations/states marveling at the "amazing gliders of the Pharaohs", Imma gonna call BS. :D
 
Seems to me this surfaced first in that silly "Black history" movement of a few years back... Where they were claiming that the Egyptians were actually black, that they had all sorts of high technology, etc, etc.
Sort of a combination of Von Danniken and Elijah Mohammed.
I recall seeing a page from a childs textbook which showed Egyptians flying around in what looked like hang-gliders....
All extrapolated from the little bird-figure described above.
 
I've let it go for a couple of hours, but the title of this thread has niggled away at my pedantry nerve.

A glider isn't powered. It may be launched by a catapult, but once up in the air it is only "powered" by gravity and inertia.

Sorry!
 
Bikewer said:
Seems to me this surfaced first in that silly "Black history" movement of a few years back... Where they were claiming that the Egyptians were actually black, that they had all sorts of high technology, etc, etc.
Sort of a combination of Von Danniken and Elijah Mohammed.
I recall seeing a page from a childs textbook which showed Egyptians flying around in what looked like hang-gliders....
All extrapolated from the little bird-figure described above.
Click to expand...

That sounds like Five Percent Nation. At least the first I heard of the glider was from my dorm neighbor back in college & he was FPN.
 
dasmiller said:
Let's do some math. Unfortunately, I remember a few of the key numbers in English units.

If we assume that the kite can get a lift coefficient of 0.7 (which is pretty good, considering that kites are normally operated in a completely stalled condition), and assuming we can build the kite and associated ropes and lift slings for ~0.5 lb/sq ft, then in a 30 mph wind, to lift an 80 ton block, we'd need a square kite that's 380 feet across.

So, yes, I concur with both "immense" and "insane challenge."
Click to expand...

Thanks for doing the maths.
 
Might it depend a little on what you call a glider? Boomerangs are gliders of a sort, and like most ancients, it seems the Egyptians had these in both straight glider and returning form, along with throwing sticks. It doesn't seem too far fetched to imagine that some mechanical means could have been found to launch a boomerang. It also doesn't seem all that far fetched to imagine that it's wishful thinking. There's never been a shortage of that.

It seems that kings were buried with a bunch of useful stuff. Of course we can't quite get into the heads of the reincarnationists who prepared pharaohs for their post-mortem journey, with bread to eat and their brains in a jar, but given all the stuff they provided in real or model form, including boomerangs, one has to wonder why nobody thought to throw in a plane if there was one to model.
 
Actually, to nitpick, the brain was the only thing you wouldn't get in a jar. Or at all for that matter. They just got it out when embalming someone. The Egyptians weren't too sure what the brain does, but they were sure you can (un)live happily ever after with the gods without one.

I think they were onto something about religion :p
 
Bikewer said:
Seems to me this surfaced first in that silly "Black history" movement of a few years back... Where they were claiming that the Egyptians were actually black, that they had all sorts of high technology, etc, etc.
Click to expand...
It's known as the Afrocentrism Theory. The general tenets of Afrocentrism is that the Egyptians were predominantly black (sub-Saharan African), had discovered most of the things we currently attribute to the Greeks and Romans many centuries earlier, and had a vaguely New-Age-ish religion/spirituality superior to any other since (there are few if any Afrocentrists who are atheist, the religious aspect seems to be a key tenet of the movement).
 
Still, a glider projected by a catapult doesn't seem like the kind of technology that an advanced space-faring species--who supposedly have the machines to travel at around the speed of light--would give to a relatively primitive people...unless they were just "cranking their yanks", if I'm using that phrase correctly.
 
About ancient aeroplaneplanes, in general:

It is not so easy to make an aeroplane, even a glider. To be sure, some ancient throwing weapons, including boomerangs and Greek discos, are partially airborne, but that does not make them into gliders. There is a good reason it took modern man about a century to invent flight: It is quite complicated to achieve effective, controlled flight. And if you want sustained flight, you need to add efficient engine technology.

Ancient people might have made bird-like toys that could partly glide, but even that is not trivial. You see, birds, even soarers like seagulls are configured to be unstable. If you stuff a seagull in a typical flying stance, balance it properly and launch it, it will keel over and crash. Watch a soaring bird and you will notice that it makes constant tiny corrections. This gives it its best maneuverability. Ever watched a swallow or house-mason in flight? Notice it holds its wings with a pronounced negative dihedral; this gives it its marvellous agility, but is inherently unstable.

As for man-carrying planes, the great challenge is not even maing one that will lift you, it is making one that you can land, and survive!

Hans
 
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