agnostics???

[J3K]

I have never heard of this belief before.(agnostics) What does it mean if you are agnostic?

 

[toddjh]

I have never heard of this belief before.(agnostics) What does it mean if you are agnostic?

Depends on who you ask. Most people will say that an agnostic is someone who doesn't know whether gods exist. That's a fairly common usage, but etymologically speaking, that's not what the word means.

The more formal definition says that an agnostic is a person who believes that we cannot, even in principle, know whether gods exist. Bit of a curious position, really. It's unsupportable, and I don't even see the appeal.

Jeremy

 

[J3K]

It might have been this word or some other "a" word. But it meant that you believe in god, but dont know which is the right god. Which makes sense to me, so many of them, how do you know which is the right one. lol Do you know what I'm talking about?

 

[Franko]

1] Theism/Deism - GOD EXIST = TRUE (God exists)
2] A-Theism - GOD EXIST = FALSE (God does NOT exist)
3] Agnosticism - GOD EXIST = UNKNOWN (Not enough information)

Essentailly if you call yourself an A-Theist you are the type of person who believes that tossed coins ALWAYS land TAILS up because there is NO EVIDENCE that they will land HEADS up.

 

[Tricky]

Toddjh is correct. However, I have also seen it explained this way.

Agnosticism literally means "no knowledge", so using Todd's informal definition, an agnostic says "I have no knowledge for or against a god."

Atheism is, in contrast, a position of belief. An atheists says "I do not believe there is a god".

These differences seem subtle, but they are important. You may see no evidence for or against a god, so you have no knowledge, yet you believe that something as powerful as a God should leave some evidence, so you also don't believe there is a god.

In fact, most of the atheists on this board would more correctly be called agnostic atheists (sometimes called soft atheists). This effectively means that they don't believe in a God (due to the lack of evidence) but they admit they cannot be sure that one does not exist (due to the lack of knowledge).

There are a few gnostic atheists (or hard atheists) who claim God is impossible, but they are rare here on these boards.

In contrast, you can also have agnostic theists, who believe god exists, usually due to their teaching, but who admit the possibility that they are wrong.

Gnostic theists are certain there is a God.

Hope this helps.

 

[Franko]

Tricky: (A-Theist)

In fact, most of the atheists on this board would more correctly be called agnostic atheists (sometimes called soft atheists). This effectively means that they don't believe in a God (due to the lack of evidence) but they admit they cannot be sure that one does not exist (due to the lack of knowledge).

There is no such thing as an "Agnostic-Atheist". As soon as you claim that there might be a "god" you are an Agnostic -- end of story.

Tricky just doesn't want to lose to many fellow devotees to his Cult of Pessimism to the Truth.

To claim that you are an "Agnostic-Atheist" is like calling a coin toss as "probably Tails". Doesn't "probably Tails" just mean TAILS? It certainly doesn't mean "HEADS".

 

[J3K]

So Franko. If you are a Theism/Deism you believe a coin will ALWAYS land HEADS up when tossed, because there is NO EVIDENCE they will land TAILS up? Just curious. Since atheist and Theism/Deism are opposite. Then your analogy should work each way.

 

[Franko]

So Franko. If you are a Theism/Deism you believe a coin will ALWAYS land HEADS up when tossed, because there is NO EVIDENCE they will land TAILS up? Just curious. Since atheist and Theism/Deism are opposite. Then your analogy should work each way.

If there were no evidence either way, that would be True. But there is abundant evidence for God. While there is no evidence for No God. (I define a “God” as a superior entity capable of generating a universe).

First of all, you don’t have any “free will” …

Atoms obey TLOP (TLOP = The Laws of Physics)
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP!

Ergo:

TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

So in the same way that YOU are more conscious then your CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

It’s that simple.

 

[whitefork]

I'd also suggest another possible definition for agnostic: the position that statements about god are analogical or metaphorical only, and cannot be given a literal or true meaning.

In short, that all statements about God are necessarily either false or meaningless.

Does anyone know a name for this belief besides agnostic?

 

[Vorticity]

Atheism is, in contrast, a position of belief. An atheists says "I do not believe there is a god".

I agree with your characterization of what an atheist would say. I disagree that that is a position of belief. Lack of belief does not constitute a belief.

1. "I do not believe there is a god." (Not a statement of belief.)
2. "I believe there is no god." (a positive statement of belief.)

There is a difference between 1. and 2. Did you mean to write 2.?
I would call 1. "atheism", and 2. "hard atheism". Note that 2. is a subset of 1.
The avantage of the more minimalist definition of "atheism" is that then "theism" and "atheism" constitute an exhaustive set. One must be either one or the other, as there is no third alternative.
"Theism" and "hard atheism" do NOT constitute an exhaustive set.

 

[J3K]

There is no evidence of god. It's one's belief. And also no evidence of no god. That is also one's belief. Franko, you are confusing. And yes I do follow the law of physics. If I go jump off a cliff, guess what, I am gonna fall to the bottem just like the law of physics says I will. Unless I have a device that will keep me from falling. But that will still follow the law of physics. Wow, sucks how I have no "free will."

 

[Vorticity]

If there were no evidence either way, that would be True. But there is abundant evidence for God. While there is no evidence for No God. (I define a “God” as a superior entity capable of generating a universe).

First of all, you don’t have any “free will” …

Atoms obey TLOP (TLOP = The Laws of Physics)
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP!

Ergo:

TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

So, if I understand it, you are defining "God" to mean "The Laws of Physics"? Since I believe that TLOP exist, under that definition I believe in God and am therefore a theist. But if TLOP = God, why have a separate word "God"? Why not just call them The Laws of Physics?

Also, since you defined "God" as a superior entity capable of generating a universe, in order to make your above statements internally consistent, you must show that TLOP (God) are:

1. A superior entity (whatever that means)
2. Capable of generating a universe. (Better learn some General Relativity! )

 

[Tricky]

I agree with your characterization of what an atheist would say. I disagree that that is a position of belief. Lack of belief does not constitute a belief.

1. "I do not believe there is a god." (Not a statement of belief.)
2. "I believe there is no god." (a positive statement of belief.)

There is a difference between 1. and 2. Did you mean to write 2.?
I would call 1. "atheism", and 2. "hard atheism". Note that 2. is a subset of 1.
The avantage of the more minimalist definition of "atheism" is that then "theism" and "atheism" constitute an exhaustive set. One must be either one or the other, as there is no third alternative.
"Theism" and "hard atheism" do NOT constitute an exhaustive set.

Okay, you got me. I should have been more precise. I use as an excuse that I was trying to provide some general definitions of things that someone new may see flying around in here.

Mia culpa.

 

[Renfield]

Agnosics and atheists are pretty much one in the same, except that atheists are REALLY sure about it.

 

[zakur]

Since I'm on an etymology trip tonight:

Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning “without, not,” as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gn

sis, “knowledge,” which was used by early Christian writers to mean “higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things” hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as “Gnostics” a group of his fellow intellectuals—“ists,” as he called them—who had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a “man without a rag of a label to cover himself with,” Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company

 

[Guest]

1] Theism/Deism - GOD EXIST = TRUE (God exists)
2] A-Theism - GOD EXIST = FALSE (God does NOT exist)
3] Agnosticism - GOD EXIST = UNKNOWN (Not enough information)

Essentailly if you call yourself an A-Theist you are the type of person who believes that tossed coins ALWAYS land TAILS up because there is NO EVIDENCE that they will land HEADS up.

Where do Logical Deists fall in that spectrum? Are LD's in 1, 2, or 3?

 

[SortingItAllOut]

I have never heard of this belief before.(agnostics) What does it mean if you are agnostic?

Hi J3K,

My definition of an agnostic is one who doesn't believe that we can know whether or not there is a creator. I don't believe that necessarily this makes the agnostic believe that no creator exists, only that we cannot know for sure.

I have spent most of my adult life wrestling with this matter personally. My Catholic upbringing and subsequent Protestant church attendance has filled my head with decades of doctine and teachings and beliefs. I don't know that this has necessarily been a good or a bad thing. I have been accused of "riding the fence" by taking an agnostic viewpoint, and I think that is okay.

I have close friends who are devout Catholics, devout Baptists, and strong Atheists. While in once sense I admire their desire to defend their closely held beliefs/opinions, I also find it a bit extreme to try to hold to the notion that you've got it all figured out. I certainly don't.

I'd like to believe that the bad will get what's coming to them one day and that the real saints of this world will find a better world on the other side of the grave. That's what I was always taught - but in my heart, I cannot help but question whether anyone has any of it really figured out and whether anyone can be sure. I don't think it is possible.

Just my opinion.

Take care,
Sort

 

[Vorticity]

Re: Re: agnostics???

...
My definition of an agnostic is one who doesn't believe that we can know whether or not there is a creator. I don't believe that necessarily this makes the agnostic believe that no creator exists, only that we cannot know for sure.
...

Yes, this is a common definition of "agnosticism", the belief that it is impossible (even in principle) to know that god(s) exists.
One thing I've never understood about this position is:
Wouldn't it always be possible - in principle - to know that god exists, if god were to appear and make him/her self known in a clear and unambiguous manner?

 

[SortingItAllOut]

Re: Re: Re: agnostics???

Yes, this is a common definition of "agnosticism", the belief that it is impossible (even in principle) to know that god(s) exists.
One thing I've never understood about this position is:
Wouldn't it always be possible - in principle - to know that god exists, if god were to appear and make him/her self known in a clear and unambiguous manner?

Good question.

But, how would god appear and make it clear that it was really god?

Here is a hypothetical and someone contrived situation to illustrate my point. Suppose that a sufficiently advanced being (not god, but perhaps an alien from a civilization that is considerably more advanced than we are) shows up, does a quick scan and figures out the local mythology and then claims to be the messiah. Suppose that he has the ability to heal the sick (via some advanced medical techniques that appear to us to be miraculous), the ability to walk on water (via some anti-gravity device), and the ability to sustain considerable physical abuse through some horrific torture (say, a crucifixion), and then his body goes into some sort of deep sleep while repairing itself, appearing to the casual observer to be, effectively, dead. Suppose that a few days pass and this alien now nearly healed, save some scars, awakes from his deep sleep, finds himself in a tomb and using his alien strength, rolls back the stone blocking the entrance. Showing himself to folks who had seen him die causes quite a stir. To finish his show, he is taken up by his alien craft after some parting words to the dumbstruck humans.

Now, we don't know of any alien lifeforms like this, but they could exist - who knows? There's an entire universe out there. The likelihood is that nothing like this would ever happen, but I suppose it could. How would we know that this alien wasn't god or at least the "son of god"? It would be difficult.

Any sufficiently advanced creature might appear to be godlike if it had answers to questions we haven't been able to answer ourselves. We can look no further than tribal cultures in Africa and South America. These people often thought that helicopters and airplanes carried their gods, that the technological advances that we take for granted - flashlights, radios, television, even butane lighters - were miraculous signs and wonders.

It is examples like these that make me hold the position that I do. How can I ever know for sure? Just my thoughts.

Take care,
Sort

 

[evildave]

Then there's Apathetic Agnisticism:

I don't know and I don't care.