Advice on civil debate

Ixion

Inquiring Mind
Ixion
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
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Ok, I have a little story to begin this thread with. At least twice a week my wife and I go to fitness classes at a local gym. We really love the gym. It is small, but the people there are very nice and the classes suit our needs very well. One of the instructors there is my best friend, whom I met when we both worked in the same laboratory. She an I are both atheists, and my wife is a Christian who was considering at one time going to seminary and becoming a minister.

So after our workout last night, we were gathering our stuff to head back home to shower and dinner and making chit chat with the other gym members on our way out. One of the members is a very nice young woman who attends the same classes as we do. My wife was discussing with her how work was affecting her ability to attend the gym more regularly and this woman says to my wife "I know what you mean. It has been difficult for me to attend all the classes I want and also spend time with my boyfriend. But now I can come more often because I broke up with him last Monday because he was an atheist." The way she said atheist was very poignant.

It became clear through a bit more discussion between my wife and her that she had been dating this guy for 3 years and that religion was one difference that made their relationship not work. However, she kept on saying how he was an atheist and implying that she was better than him because she attended worship. I don't know if she was emphasizing it because she knew my wife is a Christian who used to work for a church and wanted to get on her good side. I said nothing this entire time, but I was thinking that it seemed like a terrible reason to break up with someone if you love them. This is the only reason she gave for the break up and she repeated it several times. I don't know any of the other details of the relationship. My atheist friend was nearby and had, in fact, taught the class that night that we all attended. I don't know if she heard any of this discussion.

I just tried to seem cool and collected and didn't say anything about this while it was going on. I guess I was a little offended about how she said "atheist", but I am slow to really anger, so I just brushed it off. I wanted to engage in a civil discussion about the religious views with this lady but didn't for several reasons:
1. I think she is a nice lady and wouldn't want to upset her so much she doesn't come back to the gym.
2. I wondered how she would react if she knew the instructor was an atheist.
3. I wondered if she would have felt deceived that I didn't disclose that I was an atheist right away (I usually don't bring it up. I just live my life and affirm it if someone else asks).
4. I am not really sure if keeping my mouth shut was the right thing to do or if I should have said something, since my wife and I have a wonderful relationship and opposing religious viewpoints.
5. If this truly was the only reason that this woman broke up with her boyfriend, I am afraid civil debate might fall on deaf ears.
6. I don't usually engage in these types of discussions, so I am not sure even how to approach it. I don't know if I would get to emotional and cloud my rational thought. I don't know what is a good time and place to bring it up. Should I wait until she says something again? Should I bridge the gap? Should I just not say anything even though I disagree?

I mentioned it to my wife after we left, and she just said something along the lines of "I know you were uncomfortable."

Ok. That was a bit of a long post. I am interested in hearing any advice from atheists and deists alike. Thanks.
 
It's between the girl and the guy.
One's religion isn't a factor in fitness.
If religion is that important to the girl, she's immune to rational debate.
 
Sounds like a lucky escape for the [now ex] boyfriend.
I hope he finds himself a real woman, real soon.
 
Well, if it was me, the next time I went to the fitness class I would be wearing a t-shirt that says "ATHEIST" on it or has a Darwin Fish with feet. But then again, I’m kind of a smart ass.
 
As someone who has faced similar issues in his 38 years of being married to a Christian, all I can say is that there is no easyanswer. I may well be there is no answer at all; there certainly is no universal answer. I am generally non-committal in such circumstances. Life is too short. YMMV.
 
Ixion said:
6. I don't usually engage in these types of discussions, so I am not sure even how to approach it. I don't know if I would get to emotional and cloud my rational thought. I don't know what is a good time and place to bring it up. Should I wait until she says something again? Should I bridge the gap? Should I just not say anything even though I disagree?
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Though vitriolic, and mostly unhelpful, I (Deist here) tend to agree with the previous posters. I don't think there is any room for discussion with this person at this time. It does seem odd to me that she had been dating him for three years, and that was her one reason for ending a long-term relationship. I am making the assumption that the boyfriend was an atheist the entire time, and he didn't have a dramatic change of heart.

Just having your side of it, I wonder if there wasn't other reasons. It sounds like she latched on to the "he's an athetist", with all the negative connotations that go along with that to feed like-minded people instead of fessing up to what the real problem was. Did she think he would change to suit her? Or that she could change him? Did she never discuss the concepts of morality, or the perceived virtues of belief and faith? If she did, what were his responses? Or was it a subject that just remained taboo until it festered and broke them apart? <shrug>

If she continues to talk with you, your wife, the instructor, and continues to bring up the subject of her ex-boyfriend's atheism, then I would think she wants to talk about it. You and your wife might be exactly the right people to address some of these issues with her, and point out the obvious fallacies to which she has clung. Who knows, perhaps this relationship can be mended by this.

Hope that helps.
 
Thank you for all the responses. Gord, I think your experience of 38 years will probably be what my experience will be.
 
I'm surprised your wife didn't say anything. If I had been her, I think I would have said something along the lines of "well, religious differences can certainly doom a relationship. However, it can work. Look at me and my husband. I'm Christian and he's an atheist, and we have a wonderful relationship."

Since your wife was the one actually having the conversation, and since they were both Christian, it seems like it would have been very easy for her to say that. If you had, it might have come across to the woman as a challenge. With with your wife, it would have been just a part of the general conversation.

I know boyfriends I've dated have made comments like that to their friends when the subject comes up and their friends are unaware of my atheism. It smooths over the situation much more easily than if I had said something and come across as challenging and rather bullying.
 
RobRoy, I don't think you are being vitriolic. It is nice hearing a deist POV also. You confirm my suspicion that that was not the time nor place for a discussion over it. I also feel that there were probably other reasons she wasn't mentioning, and found it odd that she was using that excuse over and over. I don't know this woman very well, but her commentary about atheism just seemed so out-of-context for her.

Empress, I think by the time my wife got around to that point I may have wandered off :blush: It was making me uncomfortable. My wife is also non-confrontational and she might have been afraid that the conversation would have taken a turn for the worse based on this woman's inflections. I don't really know since I didn't discuss it with my wife at length. I want my wife to start posting on the JREF forums because I think it would be fun and informative for both of us, but I have not convinced her to do so yet. I am also just making suppositions of my wife's feelings, and don't want to be putting words in her mouth since I am not sure what exactly her take on it was.
 
Ixion said:
Ok. That was a bit of a long post. I am interested in hearing any advice from atheists and deists alike. Thanks.
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A few random observations.

Anyone has any right to not want to have a relationship with another person for any reason at all. Religion, race, appearance - it's a matter of personal choice. What would be despicable in choosing someone for a job is a private matter when choosing a life partner. If you can't stand redheads, or big noses, that's up to you.

The reasons that people give for a relationship not working out are often not the real reasons. Though they may be.

The worst place to be is between a fighting couple - together or seperated. Don't take sides. Don't give advice. Just nod and look sympathetic.
 
RobRoy said:
I wonder if there wasn't other reasons. It sounds like she latched on to the "he's an athetist", with all the negative connotations that go along with that to feed like-minded people instead of fessing up to what the real problem was.
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I agree. I doubt that she broke up with him simply because he was an atheist, though that may have contributed. Unless he recently started abusing her about her beliefs, I assume there is another reason, and "he's an atheist" is just something she thinks will absolve her of responsibility for a failed relationship at the same time it smears him (she thinks).

That said, I don't see what purpose it will serve to confront her with your (OPs) atheism. My guess is she isn't soured on atheists so much as she is soured on the individual. Maybe he's the one who ended it, who knows. A guy could be enjoying a daily menage a trois with his girlfriend and her girlfriend for years, and the day after she breaks up with him she's a slut. I wouldn't give much weight to the sneers of someone who's coming from a painful emotional place.
 
Ixion said:
RobRoy, I don't think you are being vitriolic.
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Err, not me. But I can see how it would read like that. I was referencing some of the posts above me. :D

It is nice hearing a deist POV also. You confirm my suspicion that that was not the time nor place for a discussion over it. I also feel that there were probably other reasons she wasn't mentioning, and found it odd that she was using that excuse over and over. I don't know this woman very well, but her commentary about atheism just seemed so out-of-context for her.
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You're welcome.

Agreed on the rest. We all seem to agree that atheism, in and of itself, wasn't the cause for the break-up, just the stated reason. I would wager it was cited in an attempt to garner more sympathy.

I am understandably curious as to how this plays out. Will you keep us informed if she continues to rant on this subject, and any interactions you have or choose to have?
 
I will, of course, keep you posted on any further developments. I am not sure if it will lead anywhere, or even if it will come up again. If it does, I will let everyone know if I say anything and what happens.

Some very wise discourse in this thread, and I will take it all into consideration if I do say anything. If she talks about it again soon, I probably won't say much, since, as Bokonon pointed out, she is probably coming from a very raw emotional state right now. I wouldn't want to necessarily confront her with it anyways, inasmuch as just ask her what it was about his atheism that she didn't like. Maybe she is just sour at the individual. Maybe he just isn't a nice person. Maybe she does have some basis on what she didn't like. For now, I can only speculate.
 
Ixion said:
I will, of course, keep you posted on any further developments. I am not sure if it will lead anywhere, or even if it will come up again. If it does, I will let everyone know if I say anything and what happens.

Some very wise discourse in this thread, and I will take it all into consideration if I do say anything. If she talks about it again soon, I probably won't say much, since, as Bokonon pointed out, she is probably coming from a very raw emotional state right now. I wouldn't want to necessarily confront her with it anyways, inasmuch as just ask her what it was about his atheism that she didn't like. Maybe she is just sour at the individual. Maybe he just isn't a nice person. Maybe she does have some basis on what she didn't like. For now, I can only speculate.
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It occurs to me that it might not be the atheism that she objects to per se, but his attitude to her beliefs. There are comments made on this forum about Christians which probably wouldn't be a sound basis for a healthy relationship. If that's the case, it will probably emerge gradually. Certainly she's unlikely to be in the mood for a dispassionate debate about generalities.
 
westprog said:
It occurs to me that it might not be the atheism that she objects to per se, but his attitude to her beliefs. There are comments made on this forum about Christians which probably wouldn't be a sound basis for a healthy relationship. If that's the case, it will probably emerge gradually.
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Over adherence to any ideology will strike sparks that can lead to infernos. Christian, atheism, meme-theory, [your ideology here], can all lead folk to grab their flame-throwers and start blasting away.

Certainly she's unlikely to be in the mood for a dispassionate debate about generalities.
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True enough, unless she keeps bringing it up as her sole source motivation. Then, perhaps, she's actually looking for a discussion. Or maybe it's just that dichotomy of "men like to fix things" and "women want to be listened to". :D
 
Hi, Ixion's wife here - yep he got me on here.

It is an interesting thing to work for a church for 5 years, consider going to seminary (after having been a PK, preacher's kid, since 1990), getting burnt out on the politics of organized religion and leaving the church.... THEN

running into this woman with whom I share many many acquaintances, and her life has been drawn more into the church, and mine as moved away from it. That is not to say that I am any less Christian. I still believe in God. I don't believe in organized religion any more. I don't understand the point of the church preaching self preservation as a religion. And I don't believe that if you don't believe as I do you will have a doomed afterlife. So, now that you get the gist of my faith...

Yeah, I was intrigued by the comment of hers because I was actually pressured to divorce my hubbie when I was going to attend seminary because he was not a "good Christian". Honestly, that was the straw for me. My family is more important to me than anything. Since I was unwilling to sacrifice my family, it was suggested to me that perhaps I was not ready for ministry. That was just fine by me. I now work at a local YMCA - happy as a clam with my atheist husband. But I suppose we all have different priorities.
 
Ixion said:
It became clear through a bit more discussion between my wife and her that she had been dating this guy for 3 years and that religion was one difference that made their relationship not work. However, she kept on saying how he was an atheist and implying that she was better than him because she attended worship.
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I'm confused. If his atheism was the problem, why did it take 3 years to break it off?

Of course we don't have the details. Maybe she was trying to convert him. But it does seem odd.

LLH
 
I don't mean to be harsh and criticize either of you, Ixion or Hamsterfan, but I think it would have been better to have said something. Not to start a debate with her, because what's the point? But just so that bigotry doesn't go unconfronted. Maybe this doesn't seem like bigotry. After all, I hope we can all agree that any reason to break up with someone is an okay reason, I guess. But consider this story:

At least twice a week my wife and I go to fitness classes at a local gym. We really love the gym. It is small, but the people there are very nice and the classes suit our needs very well. One of the instructors there is my best friend, whom I met when we both worked in the same laboratory. She and I are both Jewish, and my wife is a Christian who was considering at one time going to seminary and becoming a minister.

So after our workout last night, we were gathering our stuff to head back home to shower and dinner and making chit chat with the other gym members on our way out. One of the members is a very nice young woman who attends the same classes as we do. My wife was discussing with her how work was affecting her ability to attend the gym more regularly and this woman says to my wife "I know what you mean. It has been difficult for me to attend all the classes I want and also spend time with my boyfriend. But now I can come more often because I broke up with him last Monday because he was Jewish." The way she said "Jewish" was very poignant.

It became clear through a bit more discussion between my wife and her that she had been dating this guy for 3 years and that religion was one difference that made their relationship not work. However, she kept on saying how he was a Jew and implying that she was better than him because she attended Christian worship. I don't know if she was emphasizing it because she knew my wife is a Christian who used to work for a church and wanted to get on her good side. I said nothing this entire time, but I was thinking that it seemed like a terrible reason to break up with someone if you love them. This is the only reason she gave for the break up and she repeated it several times. I don't know any of the other details of the relationship. My Jewish friend was nearby and had, in fact, taught the class that night that we all attended. I don't know if she heard any of this discussion.
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Now, I don't like to say this, but I have to admit, it ought to be okay to break up with someone because they're Jewish. Stupid, and awful, but okay. If you see what I mean. What I mean is, I can't judge, in that sense. However - I hope if you look at this story, you can see that, hey, either the narrator or his wife really ought to have said something.

I don't jump out with my atheism all the time. I would imagine that most of the people who know me don't know I'm an atheist because it just never comes up. But bigotry thrives when people feel comfortable expressing it freely. Of course, this lady should be able to express her bigotry freely, but it's up to thinking people to make sure she doesn't feel comfortable doing so, in my opinion. If you see what I mean. And not to try to criticize either of you, Ixion or Hamsterfan.

And let me clarify a little: If she had said, "I broke up with him because he was an atheist. Nothing against that, but religion is important enough to me that that fact made us really incompatible, and I didn't see the relationship going anywhere serious." Or words to that effect - now that's not bigotry. That's just compatibility. If I were single and looking, I wouldn't date a heavy smoker. Not because I hate smokers, but because I dated one once and it made me literally physically ill. No offense, smokers, them's the facts. If I were single and looking, I probably wouldn't date a religious fundamentalist. I wouldn't date a man. I don't hate or judge them, they're just neither of them my type. But the story as described in the OP, it sounded like she was trying to air a little anti-atheism before what she perceived to be a sympathetic audience, and I just think there's sort of a responsibility to make people aware that their bigotry is not shared or welcome. Does this make sense?


ETA: And I agree with (I think) everyone that there's no point starting a confrontation or argument or debate about it. A simple "I'm an atheist" or "My husband is an atheist," followed by awkward silence (or if we're lucky, an apology from the lady) would have been good.
 
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Nobody would end a three year relationship based on something theyd known all along (unless he suddenly found anti-god).

My guess would be that she was just trying to befriend your wife. People often find something to bitch about as an ice breaker. I would assume that they actually broke up because she was sexually repressed :D
 
I would hope my fiancee would have spoken up for me if that was us in the gym. I might have had a word with her afterwards if she hadn't, "You know, when I can hear people telling you that people like me are scum, and I see you smiling and nodding, it isn't the warmest feeling I've ever had in our relationship."
 
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