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Admit it, you believe in animal rights.

Do you believe in animal rights?

  • Yes

    Votes: 81 44.0%
  • No

    Votes: 89 48.4%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 14 7.6%

  • Total voters
    184

Cain

Straussian
Joined
May 31, 2002
Messages
15,521
Location
Los Angeles
A vegetarian friend and I were talking, and we agreed that while most Americans probably scoff at the idea of "animal rights," even while they probably tacitly endorse rights for non-humans on some basic level. I'm sure the same holds true for most of the rest of the world as well. People are confused, not surprisingly.

Animal cruelty laws enjoy wide support from the public. In California, a bellwether state, we have an upcoming proposition on factory farming (the "yes" vote is currently leading by a wide margin, though that will in all likelihood narrow). Most people favor laws prohibiting the outright torture of animals, although I'm sure many Republicans might want to include provisions for unusual circumstances -- you know, in cases where there's collaboration with terrorists or something.

The fear against a moral slippery slope is not totally unjustified because once you accept the premise that non-humans are morally significant, worthy of serious consideration, then we are naturally restricting what we can do to them and for what reason(s). Fundamentally there are two arguments for outlawing the torture of animals, the non-rights view and the pro-rights view (respectively, the "dumb view" and the "decent view").

The non-rights position approaches a ban on animal cruelty/torture by indirectly addressing the suffering, which we are told is not bad in itself, but harmful in that it coarsens our more enlightened sensibilities. I believe Kant took the view that an insensitivity to animal pain could lead to indifference to human suffering. What's interesting here is that this is the view more frequently taken up by people of a more conservative persuasion, and it's not unlike banning flag-burning or pornography. And there's the rub. Even our conservative and "libertarian" friends on this board are largely unsympathetic to regulating things because they offend people, so if they accept this position then there is a bullet to bite.

If animals are basically reduced to private property, then the government should not be allowed to regulate life-style decisions involving them anymore than it should be allowed to dictate how you use your Qu'ran. If I use my Qu'ran to prop up a coffee table, then so be it. Reports of neglecting a pet and desecrating the Bible could therefore assume similar status. However, if we are free to dispose of our private property as we please, then the state violates our rights when it dictates legitimate use (barring aggression against others, e.g., I cannot assault you with hard bound edition of the ol' King James). If we agree animals do not have rights (demand moral attention), then it should be OK to legally torture them. How dare the state rob you of your dignity when it claims you can only legitimately derive pleasure by eating an animal. Similarly, how I decide to use my Bible is up to me.

I use the language of "rights" reluctantly, but just to be clear, we are talking about moral trumps. I realize some sophisticates will insist rights are a social construct, and we only have the rights a society creates, so blah blah blah blah blah, five pages later, they admit that green-eyed people could be enslaved and assume the same status as Cooler Ranch Doritos. I suppose there are also some utilitarians who could also make peculiar arguments that I refuse to pre-empt.

The decent view merely asks us to consider the interests of animals, which most people do anyway. The problem is they are unwilling to give animals much consideration when it interferes with a good meal. A meat eating friend once said that if someone treated his cat like animals in factory farm conditions, then there would be hell to pay. Yet self-described "animal lovers" pamper their cats and dogs to a comical extent while blissfully dining on murder.
 
A vegetarian friend and I were talking, and we agreed that while most Americans probably scoff at the idea of "animal rights," even while they probably tacitly endorse rights for non-humans on some basic level. I'm sure the same holds true for most of the rest of the world as well. People are confused, not surprisingly.

Animal cruelty laws enjoy wide support from the public. In California, a bellwether state, we have an upcoming proposition on factory farming (the "yes" vote is currently leading by a wide margin, though that will in all likelihood narrow). Most people favor laws prohibiting the outright torture of animals, although I'm sure many Republicans might want to include provisions for unusual circumstances -- you know, in cases where there's collaboration with terrorists or something.

The fear against a moral slippery slope is not totally unjustified because once you accept the premise that non-humans are morally significant, worthy of serious consideration, then we are naturally restricting what we can do to them and for what reason(s). Fundamentally there are two arguments for outlawing the torture of animals, the non-rights view and the pro-rights view (respectively, the "dumb view" and the "decent view").

The non-rights position approaches a ban on animal cruelty/torture by indirectly addressing the suffering, which we are told is not bad in itself, but harmful in that it coarsens our more enlightened sensibilities. I believe Kant took the view that an insensitivity to animal pain could lead to indifference to human suffering. What's interesting here is that this is the view more frequently taken up by people of a more conservative persuasion, and it's not unlike banning flag-burning or pornography. And there's the rub. Even our conservative and "libertarian" friends on this board are largely unsympathetic to regulating things because they offend people, so if they accept this position then there is a bullet to bite.

If animals are basically reduced to private property, then the government should not be allowed to regulate life-style decisions involving them anymore than it should be allowed to dictate how you use your Qu'ran. If I use my Qu'ran to prop up a coffee table, then so be it. Reports of neglecting a pet and desecrating the Bible could therefore assume similar status. However, if we are free to dispose of our private property as we please, then the state violates our rights when it dictates legitimate use (barring aggression against others, e.g., I cannot assault you with hard bound edition of the ol' King James). If we agree animals do not have rights (demand moral attention), then it should be OK to legally torture them. How dare the state rob you of your dignity when it claims you can only legitimately derive pleasure by eating an animal. Similarly, how I decide to use my Bible is up to me.

I use the language of "rights" reluctantly, but just to be clear, we are talking about moral trumps. I realize some sophisticates will insist rights are a social construct, and we only have the rights a society creates, so blah blah blah blah blah, five pages later, they admit that green-eyed people could be enslaved and assume the same status as Cooler Ranch Doritos. I suppose there are also some utilitarians who could also make peculiar arguments that I refuse to pre-empt.

The decent view merely asks us to consider the interests of animals, which most people do anyway. The problem is they are unwilling to give animals much consideration when it interferes with a good meal. A meat eating friend once said that if someone treated his cat like animals in factory farm conditions, then there would be hell to pay. Yet self-described "animal lovers" pamper their cats and dogs to a comical extent while blissfully dining on murder.

Does the term "murder" apply to the killing of a species other than homo sapien?
 
Depends what you mean by "does" and "murder." In some of our more tyrannical societies the premeditated killing of people who are in out-groups does not mean murder at all. See the penultimate paragraph for a pre-emptive argument against this line of attack. This thread is intended as a moral discussion first and the law follows. Similarly, when people say "abortion is murder" they do not mean that it is illegal to terminate a pregnancy. Instead they're saying that it is a crime not recognized by the state.
 
I believe that our relationship with non human animals is one of stewardship. It is sometimes appropriate to eat them and sometimes not, but ultimately the decision is a rather human cultural one.

IMHO ethical treatment of most animals does not require them to have "rights", but it might be helpful for animals that invoke human-like comparisons to intelligence (gorillas, chimps, etc).
 
I don't "believe in animal rights" but rather build my own ethic, cause I understand there is no consistency in societal practice. I basically try to cause the less harm whenever possible. That applies basically to insects. I don't kill them unless they are inside my house and they happen to be annoying and/or harmful in some way (such as mosquitoes).
 
I use the language of "rights" reluctantly, but just to be clear, we are talking about moral trumps. I realize some sophisticates will insist rights are a social construct, and we only have the rights a society creates, so blah blah blah blah blah, five pages later, they admit that green-eyed people could be enslaved and assume the same status as Cooler Ranch Doritos. I suppose there are also some utilitarians who could also make peculiar arguments that I refuse to pre-empt.

By "moral trumps" do you mean a set of universal ethical considerations? I think you're correct to be reluctant to use the term 'rights' as I could gain the right to dip the green-eyes in queso and eat them by the dozen if I happened to live in the appropriate society.


The non-rights position approaches a ban on animal cruelty/torture by indirectly addressing the suffering, which we are told is not bad in itself, but harmful in that it coarsens our more enlightened sensibilities. I believe Kant took the view that an insensitivity to animal pain could lead to indifference to human suffering. What's interesting here is that this is the view more frequently taken up by people of a more conservative persuasion, and it's not unlike banning flag-burning or pornography. And there's the rub. Even our conservative and "libertarian" friends on this board are largely unsympathetic to regulating things because they offend people, so if they accept this position then there is a bullet to bite.

This may be one of the utilitarian buagaoos you didn't want to address, but I'll throw out a perspective on this line of argument. Since I'm rather left of center, the majority of your pre-empt doesn't apply.

I don't think animals are ethical entities in themselves. I morally exlude them in the Opotow-ian sense (fluffy name-drop).

I believe our sole ethical commitment is for other people and that other species are alien to our ethical environment.

Thus far it seems as if I'm on board with torturing animals. In fact, I'm not sure I'm against it in the abstract.

However, humans are perceptive in regards to pain. We percieve animals in pain and we empathize. That is the cornerstone of our society and the basis for instinctive moral systems. As a result, when we cause pain to an animal our empathy is triggered and we wish to stop the pain. This is an instinctive reaction, not a moral one. Only animals which show pain trigger this reaction. Drown a cockroach in alchohol and most people won't feel a twinge. Drown a kitten and you'll probably feel like a murderer. This is because we can empathize with the pain signals of the kitten but not the cockroach.

Should we suppress that empathy, we become less able to apply it to each other. I suggest the empathy instinct is not selective. We cannot simply fail to empathize with animals but succeed with people. Once the repression is complete we become more anti-social and more of a danger to society. For that reason, we should ban animal cruelty to supress the anti-social tendancies of the population.
 
Firstly, why the Hell do people quote an entire opening post if they're the first replyer??? Genius, everyone knows what your replying to.

Secondly, why do people quote an entire entry when they only touch on one sentence??? Again, genius, your making it more dificult than it has to be.

Thirdly, explain to me what makes you better than an animal.

You are [supposedly] protected constitutionaly. They are [somewhat] protected lawfully. But this is just paper.

Why are you more important?

Why shouldn't another living thing matter?
 
Undue suffering sucks, but I am unable, even though I see the false dichotomy of my view, to assert that simply killing a cow is wrong. I want to eat bits of that cow, that cow has failed its saving throw in the evoloution department, and has become something which it is easy to raise for food.

Pigs, on the other hand, are just so tasty that they are obviously asking for it.
 
Thirdly, explain to me what makes you better than an animal.

Depends on the scale.

You are [supposedly] protected constitutionaly. They are [somewhat] protected lawfully. But this is just paper.

True

Why are you more important?

Because I'm me, for one reason. Same reason I'm more important than you. Same reason you'd be more important than me, were the question reversed.

Why shouldn't another living thing matter?

Smallpox is living. Will you defend it's rights? Otherwise this response is maybe half a step up from "think of the children!"
 
I do not believe in animal rights

I think that "rights" are a property of human interaction. Rights are an idea used to describe the fundamental way that humans interact with each other; the concept simply does not apply in the natural world. A lion is not depriving an impala of its "right to life" when it hunts, kills, and eats it. A tree is not infringing on a sidewalk's "right to privacy" when it undermines and then cracks it with a growing root. This level of entity, while living, does not have the type of voluntary interaction that is required for rights to be needed or even possible.

Rights are aspects of human nature that are codified to make clear where the line is drawn between voluntary interaction and coercion. A right is violated when the use of force, threat of force, or deceit is used to make party B interact with party A in the manner A desires. The term "right" occurs in Politics--here I am using the term in the philosophic sense, not the conversational sense--which, like Ethics, is a human concern.

I believe there are ethical issues with the treatment of animals, but not issues of Rights, except in as far as the right of ownership of a given animal is concerned. It is unethical to inflict gratuitous suffering on a feeling being, which many animals are. (I have no moral conflict on killing bacteria.) The more conscious an organism is, the more respect it deserves; however, I do not recognize that there is ever a case where an animal, no matter how cute, fuzzy, loyal or helpful, deserves to be considered human. The phrase "Meat is Murder" is nonsensical. Murder is the intentional killing of a human being. (NB: In the event that truly sentient beings other than Homo sapiens are discovered--be that in the ocean or on another planet--they will also possess rights. I think it is possible that some cetaceans are conscious, but I don't think the data supports a firm conclusion either way.)

I think people treating their beloved Poopsie and Whiskers like they are children is almost as bad as people who get pets and ignore them. In either case, they are treating the animal as something it is not; and it's not good for the animal or the person involved. (It amazes me that the Dog Whisperer has to explain to people that their dog will be happier and better behaved if they treat it like a DOG! We've spent thousands of years selectively breeding canines to regard us as superior members of their pack, is it any wonder they're confused if we treat them as if they outrank us?)

I truly love animals, and I love them for what they are. I enjoy dogs for their doggitude, cats for their felinity, and horses for their equininity. (so to speak) Heck, I love frogs for their froggy ways, their sproinging leaps and googly eyes; my garden is full of them, and I chose my landscape plants in part to provide good habitat for my feathered, furred, and scaled friends. But I have no illusion that animals possess rights.
 
Firstly, why the Hell do people quote an entire opening post if they're the first replyer??? Genius, everyone knows what your replying to.

Secondly, why do people quote an entire entry when they only touch on one sentence???
Yeah! Rang my pet peeve bell big time. Long posts do not have "post rights" to be treated as a sentient being. Slice 'em and dice 'em to get to the point.
 
If animals are basically reduced to private property, then the government should not be allowed to regulate life-style decisions involving them anymore than it should be allowed to dictate how you use your Qu'ran.
Good OP and topic, Cain. I just want to touch on the above quoted aspect of your thesis.

I think the above aspect of your argument is weak, if not outright wrong. Private property does not imply immunity to government regulation. Take, for example, zoning laws. I may own a piece of property but my city has enormous say over what I build on it (no gas station in a residential zone), where I build anything (property set backs, etc.) how it looks (height restrictions, etc) and so on.

If government can exercise some control how I use my land, why cannot it exercise a similar level of control over how I treat the creatures that live on my land? This control could even take the form of, for example, how a chicken farmer handles his waste so he doesn't stink up the neighborhood.

And note that such controls do not depend on the question of animal rights. Rather, they depend at a fundamental level on the notion of government control of the commons, where that notion extends to food resources (cows, pigs, etc.)
 
I believe that our relationship with non human animals is one of stewardship. It is sometimes appropriate to eat them and sometimes not, but ultimately the decision is a rather human cultural one.

This is suspect. So cultural meaning subjective in the sense that I like blue and you like red? The questions that are important here are when is not OK, and why not?

-----------------
Ron Tomkins:

I don't "believe in animal rights" but rather build my own ethic, cause I understand there is no consistency in societal practice. I basically try to cause the less harm whenever possible. That applies basically to insects. I don't kill them unless they are inside my house and they happen to be annoying and/or harmful in some way (such as mosquitoes)

So, in order to be consistent, you presumably do not believe in rights for humans either...

-----------------------

quixotecoyote:

By "moral trumps" do you mean a set of universal ethical considerations? I think you're correct to be reluctant to use the term 'rights' as I could gain the right to dip the green-eyes in queso and eat them by the dozen if I happened to live in the appropriate society.

Well, in that case you would have to value your meal above a person's interest in living (or dying or horribly).

I don't think animals are ethical entities in themselves. I morally exlude them in the Opotow-ian sense (fluffy name-drop).

I believe our sole ethical commitment is for other people and that other species are alien to our ethical environment.

I do not know what you mean by "ethical entities in themselves." Are you equating a herd of zebras to some scenic mountain top view?

However, humans are perceptive in regards to pain. We percieve animals in pain and we empathize. That is the cornerstone of our society and the basis for instinctive moral systems. As a result, when we cause pain to an animal our empathy is triggered and we wish to stop the pain. This is an instinctive reaction, not a moral one. Only animals which show pain trigger this reaction. Drown a cockroach in alchohol and most people won't feel a twinge. Drown a kitten and you'll probably feel like a murderer. This is because we can empathize with the pain signals of the kitten but not the cockroach.

Should we suppress that empathy, we become less able to apply it to each other. I suggest the empathy instinct is not selective. We cannot simply fail to empathize with animals but succeed with people. Once the repression is complete we become more anti-social and more of a danger to society. For that reason, we should ban animal cruelty to supress the anti-social tendancies of the population.

This is basically the same argument given for banning video games. So the aliens come down from the sky and they are not sure if they should conduct very painful experiments on human beings. Their greatest philosopher says it depends on whether or not they experience empathy. "If it doesn't feel good, don't do it." And what if it triggers euphoria? Should they definitely torture us as much and as often as possible?

------------------------

Miss Kitt:
Rights are aspects of human nature that are codified to make clear where the line is drawn between voluntary interaction and coercion. A right is violated when the use of force, threat of force, or deceit is used to make party B interact with party A in the manner A desires.

Perhaps I was being way too optimistic in assuming we had gotten past simple speciesism. While always present in these threads in one form or another, I did not anticipate this or some of the other responses. What is it about Homo sapiens that makes them special? Why do the above rights apply only to members of our species? I do also wonder, given that humans are created from animals, how and when your above distinctions kicked into effect.
Instead of judging by species we need to look at real, morally significant characteristics, hit upon elsewhere in your post:

It is unethical to inflict gratuitous suffering on a feeling being, which many animals are.

However, the next bit is misguided:
I do not recognize that there is ever a case where an animal, no matter how cute, fuzzy, loyal or helpful, deserves to be considered human.

Who makes that argument?

-------------------------
On speciesism:

Do we share more in common with Teri Schaivo or Koko the Gorilla? We need to judge an individual by non-arbitrary characteristics, such as the capacity to experience pain, one's level of self-awareness. It's not enough -- not nearly enough -- to put up a bright line of human and non-human, which is why it's useful to imagine a superior alien life form. The aliens want to take you, so what's your argument? How do you appeal to their superior reasoning abilities?


----------------------
Sez wrote:

I think the above aspect of your argument is weak, if not outright wrong. Private property does not imply immunity to government regulation. Take, for example, zoning laws. I may own a piece of property but my city has enormous say over what I build on it (no gas station in a residential zone), where I build anything (property set backs, etc.) how it looks (height restrictions, etc) and so on.

I agree, but I was talking about private property in the context of "life-style decisions," meaning choices that do not materially impact the surrounding community (e.g., being gay, watching pornography, listening to polka). Yes, I suppose a single suburban mother of two could decide to become farmer Jane and her new life-style is starting a pig-farm. Or a person could play his polka music so loud that it disturbs his neighbors.
 
I voted "yes" on the rights, not because I do not believe that humans should exploit animals, but because I think there should be limits.
 
Thirdly, explain to me what makes you better than an animal.
Human beings are are smarter, better at making and using tools, better at communicating with other living beings, and better at thinking about things like ethics and making rational decisions regarding our behavior.
Why shouldn't another living thing matter?
Who said they didn't matter? Just because I'm better than you doesn't mean you don't matter. :)

I think that "rights" are a property of human interaction. Rights are an idea used to describe the fundamental way that humans interact with each other; the concept simply does not apply in the natural world. A lion is not depriving an impala of its "right to life" when it hunts, kills, and eats it. A tree is not infringing on a sidewalk's "right to privacy" when it undermines and then cracks it with a growing root. This level of entity, while living, does not have the type of voluntary interaction that is required for rights to be needed or even possible.
I think you've explained things quite nicely Miss Kitt


This is suspect. So cultural meaning subjective in the sense that I like blue and you like red? The questions that are important here are when is not OK, and why not?
Very valid questions, but the answers are going to differ from one culture to another and even within a single culture depending on the resources available to that culture.
Perhaps I was being way too optimistic in assuming we had gotten past simple speciesism.
I'm afraid so.
What is it about Homo sapiens that makes them special?
See above. In addition, it happens to be ourspecies. I don't see setting our species above all others as more important to be different than setting your country, your family, or your local football team above all others. There's nothing wrong with taking pride in who and what you are.
Why do the above rights apply only to members of our species? I do also wonder, given that humans are created from animals, how and when your above distinctions kicked into effect.
That's a tricky question. I think there are some very good argument for treating some animals, such as Chimpanzees, as being entitled to some rights. Cows and pigs, on the other hand, are bred to be eaten. That's why they are alive in the first place.
On speciesism:
Do we share more in common with Teri Schaivo or Koko the Gorilla?
Teri Schaivo IMO.

We need to judge an individual by non-arbitrary characteristics, such as the capacity to experience pain, one's level of self-awareness. It's not enough -- not nearly enough -- to put up a bright line of human and non-human, which is why it's useful to imagine a superior alien life form. The aliens want to take you, so what's your argument? How do you appeal to their superior reasoning abilities?
Bright lines are rarely perfectly appropriate; what they are is practical. Why does everyone magically change from a child to an adult on their 18th birthday? They don't. Some people are mature earlier, some later. But a bright line allows our society to function more effectively and efficiently in regards to determining what rights people have.
 
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The problem is with the word "rights" - the vast majority of people believe that animals should be treated humanely and they should be legally protected from cruel treatment. It fact, there are legal sanctions against animal cruelty in NY and I suspect in every other state. I think the animal "rights" people are intent on making the issue a federal one - which it does not need to be and just one more thing for the feds to have their finger in and would, in all likelihood, lead to more animal abuse the the principle of unintended consequences. I also believe that it is the goal of the most vocal animal rights group to eliminate the "use" of animals altogether. I am not a fan of raising animals only to kill them for their fur, for example, but I am not sure I would be ready to ban the practice. Like most people I wear leather shoes and have a leather baseball glove and our minivan has leather seats and I like those things. I do find some comfort in the fact that almost all leather animals are used in their entirety and not raised and killed for their skin alone.
 
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of Animals to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Case closed.
 
The problem is with the word "rights" - the vast majority of people believe that animals should be treated humanely and they should be legally protected from cruel treatment.
This is true I think.
I am not a fan of raising animals only to kill them for their fur, for example, but I am not sure I would be ready to ban the practice. Like most people I wear leather shoes and have a leather baseball glove and our minivan has leather seats and I like those things. I do find some comfort in the fact that almost all leather animals are used in their entirety and not raised and killed for their skin alone.

I've always assumed that the people who raise minks, rabbits, chinchilla's, etc. for their fur also find a use for the rest of the animal. That the meat would be used in something like dog food. I don't actually know anything about the industry, but most industries try to find a use for what they consider their 'waste' rather than just dumping it in the landfill. Does anybody know what they actually do with the bodies after they've been stripped of their fur?
 
I'm always amused by the people who have no issue with an animal dying just to satisfy their tastebuds, as long as it didn't suffer first. "Yeah, I care, but only to a point, you know? I mean, don't let the poor little guy suffer on account of my steak tartare, but sure, I'm happy for it to die for my satisfaction. My compassion only stretches as far as the living part. The dying, I don't think about. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to enjoy this delicious beef with a clear conscience, right?".

I have unusual views about such things, though. I don't expect much agreement. And no, I am not a vegetarian.
 
I'm always amused by the people who have no issue with an animal dying just to satisfy their tastebuds, as long as it didn't suffer first. "Yeah, I care, but only to a point, you know? I mean, don't let the poor little guy suffer on account of my steak tartare, but sure, I'm happy for it to die for my satisfaction. My compassion only stretches as far as the living part. The dying, I don't think about. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to enjoy this delicious beef with a clear conscience, right?".

I have unusual views about such things, though. I don't expect much agreement. And no, I am not a vegetarian.

If it suffered, it would leave a bad taste in your mouth. :p
 

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