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Acupuncture at Stanford

PaulK

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Aug 2, 2003
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I just learned today that Stanford University Hospital uses acupuncture in its anesthesiology department. If they could prove some efficacy, wouldn't that qualify for the challenge? I see "acupuncture" is listed as a paranormal item but I wonder if anesthesia fits. Has Stanford University every applied for the challenge and should I encourage my "highly-placed source" to do so?
Paul
 
Re:Acupunture

I would argue no. The people who do Acupuncture generally don't claim it to be a 'paranormal' nature.
Because there is physical interaction with the body, rather than say simply laying on hands, I think that also muddies the water, as there may well be something that happens, even if it isn't what they exactly believe.
And to test it we'd have to get someone to put needles in random places...urgh.
(1st Post. Yay)
 
Mangel said:
I would argue no. The people who do Acupuncture generally don't claim it to be a 'paranormal' nature.
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Homeopathists, in general, don't claim that homeopathy is paranormal either (check out Dr. MAS's "challenge," for example). They claim the effects are real. This doesn't prevent homeopathy being considered for the challenge.
Because there is physical interaction with the body, rather than say simply laying on hands, I think that also muddies the water, as there may well be something that happens, even if it isn't what they exactly believe.
And to test it we'd have to get someone to put needles in random places...urgh.
Click to expand...
Acupuncture does seem to be slightly better supported by the results of studies than many other sorts of CAM, but it is seems that this is at least partly to do with the difficulty of producing a convincing placebo that can be effectively blinded. In fact, in a recent study it was found that sticking the needles into random points worked just as well as using the "proper" acupuncture points.
(1st Post. Yay)
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And welcome to the forum! :)
 
Mojo:
Acupuncture does seem to be slightly better supported by the results of studies than many other sorts of CAM, but it is seems that this is at least partly to do with the difficulty of producing a convincing placebo that can be effectively blinded. In fact, in a recent study it was found that sticking the needles into random points worked just as well as using the "proper" acupuncture points.
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Mojo,

I would love to get a link for your last statement. I myself have seen evidence for your first two statements but not the last. :)
 
I'll have a look for it. I'm sure I've linked to it elsewhere in the forum.

ETA: This is it, I think. I think the "sham acupuncture" mentioned in the abstract involved sticking the needles elsewhere than the acupucture points.
 
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http://jama.ama-assn.org

Yes, this was for reducing migraine headache pain. If JAMA says it, I guess we can believe it. Yet search the JAMA website for other TCM related things, and you'll see other things worth while.
 
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Mojo said:
I'll have a look for it. I'm sure I've linked to it elsewhere in the forum.

ETA: This is it, I think. I think the "sham acupuncture" mentioned in the abstract involved sticking the needles elsewhere than the acupucture points.
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I personally think (hypothesize) that accupuncture works on a distraction basis-- If you have a headache, and someone clobers your fingers with a hammer, the headache "goes away"
Reminds me of "Shorty", the ranch hand. Had an injury as a kid that cused him to walk with a limp well into his 40's. One day, however, he was walking normally. When asked why, he replied "I hurt my good knee. ever tried to limp with bothlegs?"
 
Mangel said:
The people who do Acupuncture generally don't claim it to be a 'paranormal' nature.
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter what they claim. Is it of a paranormal nature? Yes, it is.

Mangel said:
Because there is physical interaction with the body, rather than say simply laying on hands, I think that also muddies the water, as there may well be something that happens, even if it isn't what they exactly believe.
And to test it we'd have to get someone to put needles in random places...urgh.
(1st Post. Yay)
Click to expand...

They have, and they got the same result. So, it doesn't matter where you stick'em. No meridians, then.
 
Under American Academy of Medical Acupuncture.
http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/findadoc/index.html

I found
>80 members registered as acupuncturist in NY (new york?)
>127 members registered as acupuncturist in CA (california?)
Most of them MD. Which I take to mean medical doctors.

I wonder why acupuncture is still considered paranormal when it is apparently receives support by the medical doctors.
 
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Jyera said:
I wonder why acupuncture is still considered paranormal when it is apparently receives support by the medical doctors.
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I can get you lists of doctors and vets who practise homoeopathy too. Doesn't make it any the less paranormal. If they can prove that shaken-up sugar pills are in any way different from non-shaken-up sugar pills, they'll get the money. Funny how none of them ever seem to want to try for it.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
I can get you lists of doctors and vets who practise homoeopathy too. Doesn't make it any the less paranormal. If they can prove that shaken-up sugar pills are in any way different from non-shaken-up sugar pills, they'll get the money. Funny how none of them ever seem to want to try for it.

Rolfe.
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I would rather you show me a list of vet practising acupuncture.
Was that you who say you could make a horse fall by inserting a needle on the neck of the horse?
 
Jyera said:
Do I suppose that if someone proves that Meridians do exist, then the person can win the JREF million dollar?
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I suspect that that would depend very strongly on the wording of the claim, and in particular on what the agreed-upon definition and properties of "meridians" are. In principle, the answer should be "yes," but one of the difficulties with studying this stuff seriously is often that by the time one can pin the woos down to a definite description of what they're doing, all the paranormal stuff seems to have leaked away....
 
Jyera said:
I would rather you show me a list of vet practising acupuncture.
Was that you who say you could make a horse fall by inserting a needle on the neck of the horse?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same names on the list, but the RCVS has so far not taken leave of its senses sufficiently to list acupuncturists as well. Though I have to say this is probably just because acupuncture is a johnny-come-lately (veterinary acupuncture was invented in the 1970s) and they haven't yet banded together into a "faculty" to give each other impressive-looking diplomas.

I have three times had horses fall down on me (well, not literally "on", fortunately) as a result of sticking needles into their necks. Out of hundreds and hundreds of times sticking needles into horses' necks (to collect blood samples). I really don't think I could do it to order.

The point is that there are one or two specific instances where sticking needles in a patient can produce quite dramatic effects. However, these effects can be explained in normal physiological terms, and their existence doesn't prove that any of the woo nonsense spouted by the acupuncturists is real.

However, you'd have to be careful how you designed a test of acupuncture. It's not impossible that someone could select out these effects and demonstrate them repeatably enough to make a good shot at the million bucks.

Rolfe.
 
Jyera said:
Under American Academy of Medical Acupuncture.
http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/findadoc/index.html

I found
>80 members registered as acupuncturist in NY (new york?)
>127 members registered as acupuncturist in CA (california?)
Most of them MD. Which I take to mean medical doctors.

I wonder why acupuncture is still considered paranormal when it is apparently receives support by the medical doctors.
Click to expand...
Apparently there are over 50,000 medical doctors in the Greater New York Metropolitan Area, so it seems that acupuncture only receives support from a very small percentage of them.
 
Jyera said:
I wonder why acupuncture is still considered paranormal when it is apparently receives support by the medical doctors.
Click to expand...

Medical doctors sometimes prescribe placebo, too. Those pills don't do anything either.
 
It isn't so much about the number of MD supporting acupuncture.
But the fact that there are MD supporting acupuncture.
 
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