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A Warning from Israel

demon

Master Poster
Joined
Aug 1, 2002
Messages
2,736
July 15, 2005

What May Come After the Evacuation of Jewish Settlers from the Gaza Strip
A Warning from Israel
By URI DAVIS, ILAN PAPPE, and TAMAR YARON

We feel that it is urgent and necessary to raise the alarm regarding what may come during and after evacuation of Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip occupied by Israel in 1967, in the event that the evacuation is implemented.

We held back on getting this statement published and circulated, seeking additional feedback from our peers. The publication in Ha'aretz (22 June 2005) quoting statements by General (Reserves) Eival Giladi, the head of the Coordination and Strategy team of the Prime Minister's Office, motivated us not to delay publication and circulation any further. Confirming our worst fears, General (Res.) Eival Giladi went on record in print and on television to the effect that "Israel will act in a very resolute manner in order to prevent terror attacks and [militant] fire while the disengagement is being implemented" and that "If pinpoint response proves insufficient, we may have to use weaponry that causes major collateral damage, including helicopters and planes, with mounting danger to surrounding people."

We believe that one primary, unstated motive for the determination of the government of the State of Israel to get the Jewish settlers of the Qatif (Katif) settlement block out of the Gaza Strip may be to keep them out of harm's way when the Israeli government and military possibly trigger an intensified mass attack on the approximately one and a half million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, of whom about half are 1948 Palestine refugees.

The scenario could be similar to what has already happened in the past - a tactic that Ariel Sharon has used many times in his military career - i.e., utilizing provocation in order to launch massive attacks.

Following this pattern, we believe that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz are considering to utilize provocation for vicious attacks in the near future on the approximately one and a half million Palestinian inhabitants of the Gaza Strip: a possible combination of intensified state terror and mass killing. The Israeli army is not likely to risk the kind of casualties to its soldiers that would be involved in employing ground troops on a large scale in the Gaza Strip. With General Dan Halutz as Chief of Staff they don't need to. It was General Dan Halutz, in his capacity as Commander of the Israeli Air Force, who authorized the bombing of a civilian Gaza City quarter with a bomb weighing one ton, and then went on record as saying that he sleeps well and that the only thing he feels when dropping a bomb is a slight bump of the aircraft.

The initiators of this alarm have been active for many decades in the defence of human rights inside the State of Israel and beyond. We do not have the academic evidence to support our feeling, but given past behavior, ideological leanings and current media spin initiated by the Israeli government and military, we believe that the designs of the State of Israel are clear, and we submit that our educated intuition with matters pertaining to the defence of human rights has been more often correct than otherwise.

We urge all those who share the concern above to add their names to ours and urgently give this alarm as wide a circulation as possible.

Circulating and publishing this text may constitute a significant factor in deterring the Israeli government, thus protecting the Palestinian population in the Gaza Strip from this very possible catastrophe and contributing to prevent yet more war crimes from occurring.

Please sign, circulate, and publish this alarm without delay!

http://www.counterpunch.org/davis07162005.html
 
Demon, imagine that you are now PM of Israel. What would PM demon do? I'm serious, if you have a solution I'd like to hear it.

I'm not advocating the response that your article fears, but there's no evidence Israel is either. I just want to know what you would do.
 
demon said:
What May Come After the Evacuation of Jewish Settlers from the Gaza Strip
So the entire premise of this laughable counterpunch article is based upon a hypothetical.
What May Come After the Evacuation
They then extrapolate their hypothetical into a claim:
"we believe that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz are considering to utilize provocation for vicious attacks in the near future on the approximately one and a half million Palestinian inhabitants of the Gaza Strip: a possible combination of intensified state terror and mass killing".
And they go further:
"we believe that the designs of the State of Israel are clear, and we submit that our educated intuition with matters pertaining to the defence of human rights has been more often correct than otherwise".
This is nothing more than propoganda and turnspeak. You are peddling in propoganda Demon. Worse, you are peddling an opinion based upon hypothetical event which never took place.

:dl:
 
This is pretty disgusting, even for you, demon. You’re accusing Israel of genocide based on nothing more than “academic intuition”?

And perhaps I am prejudiced, but I am intensely distrustful of anyone who uses the word "utilize".

demon said:
We held back on getting this statement published and circulated, seeking additional feedback from our peers.
Translation: we’re pretending that this is the result of widespread consensus, rather than three people making WAGs.

The publication in Ha'aretz (22 June 2005) quoting statements by General (Reserves) Eival Giladi, the head of the Coordination and Strategy team of the Prime Minister's Office, motivated us not to delay publication and circulation any further.
And by “not to delay” they mean “delay for a month”.

Confirming our worst fears, General (Res.) Eival Giladi went on record in print and on television to the effect that "Israel will act in a very resolute manner in order to prevent terror attacks and [militant] fire while the disengagement is being implemented" and that "If pinpoint response proves insufficient, we may have to use weaponry that causes major collateral damage, including helicopters and planes, with mounting danger to surrounding people."
Their worst fear is that Israel will defend itself.

We believe that one primary, unstated motive
“One primary”? Either it’s THE primary motive, or it’s not. There is no such thing as “one primary”.

The scenario could be similar to what has already happened in the past - a tactic that Ariel Sharon has used many times in his military career - i.e., utilizing provocation in order to launch massive attacks.
Really? Any examples?

We do not have the academic evidence to support our feeling, but given past behavior, ideological leanings and current media spin initiated by the Israeli government and military, we believe that the designs of the State of Israel are clear, and we submit that our educated intuition with matters pertaining to the defence of human rights has been more often correct than otherwise.
Oh, really? What are some examples of these “past behavior, ideological leanings and current media spin initiated by the Israeli government and military”? We’re supposed to consider the matter settled merely because they have a greater than 50% success rate?

We urge all those who share the concern above to add their names to ours and urgently give this alarm as wide a circulation as possible.
So they are not only making completely unsubstantiated claims about Israel, but asking people join in? What, is truth now a popularity constest?

Circulating and publishing this text may constitute a significant factor in deterring the Israeli government, thus protecting the Palestinian population in the Gaza Strip from this very possible catastrophe and contributing to prevent yet more war crimes from occurring.
Translation: if nothing happens, we’ll claim that it’s because of this alarm. If something does happen, we’ll say “told you so”.

I really don’t understand why people with such a poor grasp of English insist on employing such fancy verbiage. Redundancies such as “intensified mass attack”, “casualties to its soldiers” and “We feel that it is urgent and necessary to raise the alarm regarding what may come during and after evacuation of Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip occupied by Israel in 1967, in the event that the evacuation is implemented.” when combined with such misuse of the English language as “one primary”, “considering to utilize provocation for vicious attacks” and “The scenario could be similar to what has already happened in the past - a tactic that Ariel Sharon has used many times in his military career - i.e., utilizing provocation in order to launch massive attacks.” suggest that the authors are more interested in dazzling the reader than effectively communicating.
 
Art Vandelay said:
quote:
--------------------------------------
Originally posted by demon
We held back on getting this statement published and circulated, seeking additional feedback from our peers.
--------------------------------------

Translation: we’re pretending that this is the result of widespread consensus, rather than three people making WAGs.
Would the target audience assume that something produced in consultation with their "peers" would be any better than something produced by them (or him or her) alone? If they are cynically manipulating a naive target audience, does the target audience not know that or does the target audience not care?

I wonder whether "this statement" is to be taken literally. Perhaps it refers to an earlier version of the statement?

Please sign, circulate, and publish this alarm without delay!
Should I try to figure out whether "this alarm" means the same thing as "this statement"? Was the request to publish kept out of the earlier versions?
 
Art Vandelay said:
Oh, really? What are some examples of these “past behavior, ideological leanings and current media spin initiated by the Israeli government and military”? We’re supposed to consider the matter settled merely because they have a greater than 50% success rate?
No, we're supposed to consider the matter settled merely because they claim that they have a greater than 50% success rate.
 
Well, having more than half of one's guesses turn out to be correct strikes me as such a trivial accomplishment that I'm willing to stipulate to that. After all, all one must do is make a bunch of obvious assertions, such as "terrorists will kill at least one person this year".
 
We believe that one primary, unstated motive for the determination of the government of the State of Israel to get the Jewish settlers of the Qatif (Katif) settlement block out of the Gaza Strip may be to keep them out of harm's way when the Israeli government and military possibly trigger an intensified mass attack on the approximately one and a half million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, of whom about half are 1948 Palestine refugees.
I can't see the logic in that. It is certainly likely that the evacuation will be accompanied by massive destruction. This withdrawal will not be a show of weakness, as it was from Lebanon, but will be accompanied by a show of strength. Probably.

The settlements are being evacuated because they're untenable. And taking the Gaza Strip off the "occupied territories" list has a huge demographic effect. It's not about attacking the Gazans pre se.
 
CapelDodger said:
The settlements are being evacuated because they're untenable. And taking the Gaza Strip off the "occupied territories" list has a huge demographic effect. It's not about attacking the Gazans pre se.

I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just wondering if you have a source for this opinion or if it's just your personal speculation.
 
Mycroft said:
I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just wondering if you have a source for this opinion or if it's just your personal speculation.
It's a widely-held opinion that makes perfect sense. The cost and the military resources required to maintain a few thousand families at best in an area where the water is running out are not sustainable. I'm hardly the first to raise the demographic issue in Palestine; nominally remove the Gaza Strip from Palestine and you remove a lot of Arabs and hardly any Jews. Members of the Israeli government and military have made these points themselves. What else could be Sharon's motivation for such a divisive policy?
 
Demon, imagine that you are now PM of Israel. What would PM demon do? I'm serious, if you have a solution I'd like to hear it. <<<<

They should evacuate themselves from the middle east. They are in an untenable situation there that has only one ultimate outcome. Their destruction. They could completely exterminate the Palestinians and it wouldn't solve their problem, might even make it worse.
 
CapelDodger said:
The settlements are being evacuated because they're untenable. And taking the Gaza Strip off the "occupied territories" list has a huge demographic effect. It's not about attacking the Gazans pre se.

Capel Dodger, leaving the general political analysis of a general issue what is your opinion about articles like the one that was posted in the OP?

What purpose do you think that they really serve, if you believe that they serve any purpose.
 
I am not sure what the authors of the article are trying to advocate.


DO they want a committment from the Isreali Government NOT to remove the Gaza settlements??
 
Drooper said:
I am not sure what the authors of the article are trying to advocate.
They are trying to advocate hate. The entire article is a "prediction" based upon hypothetical events which have not taken place. It is the lowest form of propoganda - made up myths passed off as facts.... and worse, the authors of this propoganda want you to:
Please sign, circulate, and publish this alarm without delay!

:dl:
 
The settlements are being evacuated because they're untenable. And taking the Gaza Strip off the "occupied territories" list has a huge demographic effect. It's not about attacking the Gazans pre se.<<<<<

In a documentary I watched the other day, they said that the Israelis are only .5 percent of the population of the Gaza but are using 40 percent of the resources of the area. Then they wonder why they are getting blown up.
 
Vagabond said:
In a documentary I watched the other day, they said that the Israelis are only .5 percent of the population of the Gaza but are using 40 percent of the resources of the area. Then they wonder why they are getting blown up.
Well that documentary forgot to tell you the water, power and cell phone system in Gaza are Israeli utilities. ;)

Additionally,
Bush Gives $20 Mln to Palestinians for Israeli Bills (Reuters) - Wed Dec 8th 2004 at 4:02 pm ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush on Wednesday approved $20 million in direct aid to the Palestinian Authority to help pay its Israeli utility bills after key lawmakers objected to plans to use the money for presidential elections in January and to pay Palestinian salaries.
(emphasis mine)
Bush reaches out to Palestinians after vote - 2005-01-10 08:46

Following Arafat's death, Bush provided $20 million directly to the Palestinian Authority, but on condition the money be used to pay Israeli utility bills.
The Palestinian Authority stopped paying Israeli utility companies - to the tune of over $30,000,000.00! Yet those evil zionists kept the water and power flowing anyways. Damn they are evil.

What would happen if you owed the utility company $30,000,000.00 Vagabond? Would they cut of your service? So when you say "In a documentary I watched the other day, they said that the Israelis are only .5 percent of the population of the Gaza but are using 40 percent of the resources of the area. Then they wonder why they are getting blown up" it is sheer propoganda to deligitimize human beings who happen to pay their utility bills. ;)
 
zenith-nadir said:
Well that documentary forgot to tell you the water, power and cell phone system in Gaza are Israeli utilities. ;)

It's also worth noting that the reason these utility systems were built by Israel is that they were not built by Egypt when they controlled the Gaza Strip. This is one of the ways life improved for the Palestinian-Arabs after Israel took over.
 
CapelDodger said:
It's a widely-held opinion that makes perfect sense. The cost and the military resources required to maintain a few thousand families at best in an area where the water is running out are not sustainable. I'm hardly the first to raise the demographic issue in Palestine; nominally remove the Gaza Strip from Palestine and you remove a lot of Arabs and hardly any Jews. Members of the Israeli government and military have made these points themselves. What else could be Sharon's motivation for such a divisive policy?

Widely held by who, exactly?
 
David Carroll said:
Wow, now I've seen it all! Psychic propaganda, eh?:rolleyes:
That's exactly what it is.

:dl:

What May Come After the Evacuation of Jewish Settlers from the Gaza Strip
That is a prediction.
We feel that it is urgent and necessary to raise the alarm regarding what may come during and after evacuation of Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip occupied by Israel in 1967, in the event that the evacuation is implemented.
That is predicting the future.
We do not have the academic evidence to support our feeling, but given past behavior, ideological leanings and current media spin initiated by the Israeli government and military, we believe that the designs of the State of Israel are clear
That's their "out". They can't provide evidence for their future telling but who cares ;) ...they still believe it!!!... and want you to:
sign, circulate, and publish this alarm without delay!
This article should be a lesson that A) Demon should not be taken seriously and B) Counterpunch.org is peddling in propoganda and should not be taken seriously either.
 

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