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A Truther writes...

angrysoba

Philosophile
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Someone on another forum is very pleased with themselves at having come up with a fool-proof demolition of the "official story" and believe that it is refuted by applying the conservation of momentum. They also link to some execrable page from the execrable "What Really Happened" website. But does anyone feel like giving a concise reason for why the conservation of momentum argument is wrong or misapplied here? (I'm not an engineer!)

Perhaps the key point to the entire implausibility of the 'pancake collapse' theory is considering a very old law - conservation of momentum.
Conservation of momentum comes from Newton's first law. A body will remain at rest or travel in uniform motion in a straight line unless acted upon by another force.
Consider the initial collapse of the top sections, which in each case would have the lightest top portion of the building, being the thinnest part of the core. We are expected to believe that as it suddenly (with a flash) lost all its structure and fell onto the floor below, the combined weight of the section above the disintegrated floor lands on the floor below. That causes the floor below to collapse under the strain, and the entire new mass falls onto the next floor. This progression continues neatly all the way down.
That's fine, apart from one very important detail - how does each new floor suddenly assume the accumulated velocity of the falling floors above? We're talking about a progressively heavy core structure (it having been built to bear the weight of the entire structure above, at each stage). So why did it not _substantially_ arrest the downward motion?
As Frank Verismo points out, a great deal of the mass was pulverised in any case, so the full weight of the above sections were dispersed each time a new floor was reached by the downward progression.
How did the really heavy mid to lower sections suddenly start moving at the same pace as the falling upper sections, unless they were offering _virtually no resistance at all_ - unless they were already falling themselves immediately before the progression hit them.
The towers did not come down quite at free-fall speed, but it was not far off it. It was way too close to free-fall acceleration to believe even for a moment than a substantial structure of increasing strength was being crushed by the powdered remains of the floors above.
*
If the motion was entirely downwards, with no other force than downward gravity operating after collapse was initiated, why do we see massive steel girders ejected out laterally for hundreds of feet? Why did tiny body parts (sections of finger, etc.) appear on rooftops hundreds of yards away?
In standard building collapses, one would find at least a few things intact. A chair, a monitor, something. How come the biggest items found were fragments of telephone keypads?
Look at the column on the last picture on this page: How did it acquire that precise cut, consistent with a controlled demolition?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/thermite.htm
*
But back to conservation of momentum. Inertia dictates that a mass will not suddenly assume the velocity of the moving object falling onto it, even if it is so tenuously structured that a feather falling onto it would initiate its collapse. In this case, we are talking about an increasing substantial structure the further down the building we go. Yet it offered little more resistance than fresh air on the day of 9/11.
 
I think he forgot there already is a force acting on the floors all the time. It's called gravity.
 
2 points.

1- he accepts that stuff falling on the floors will break them up, and then asks how the falling mass destroys the columns. This line of thinking is as odds. Once he admits that stuff falls on the floors, then the strength of the columns is NOT the determining factor. the strength of the floors and their connections are, Whather or not core columns fail depends on the bracing they have AFTER the debris passes through, and any rational mind will admit that the core floors/bracing will be destroyed as well by the debris.

2- he also mentions something about the floors being broken up before the debris hits it. Well, Bazant describes this very thing as likely to have happened by air pressure from the descending debris cracking apart the concrete SLIGHTLY AHEAD OF the debris impacts.
 
"Look at the column on the last picture on this page: How did it acquire that precise cut, consistent with a controlled demolition?"

Welcome to 2005!

Gee an angle cut column is "Consistent with controlled demolition"??? Jesus, who are they kidding?

My suggestion is that you link to verinage demolition videos and tell the knucklehead to STFU and GBTW.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbpgxr_demolition-tours-pres-saint-jean-vu_news
 
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But does anyone feel like giving a concise reason for why the conservation of momentum argument is wrong or misapplied here? (I'm not an engineer!)

What a *********** idiot.

TAM:)
TAM's response is accurate and concise.

Here are a few supporting details. All quotations are from the Truther quoted in the original post.
That's fine, apart from one very important detail - how does each new floor suddenly assume the accumulated velocity of the falling floors above? We're talking about a progressively heavy core structure (it having been built to bear the weight of the entire structure above, at each stage). So why did it not _substantially_ arrest the downward motion?
When an upper section consisting of 12 floors collides inelastically with the floor below, the loss of velocity due to conservation of momentum is about 1/13 of the upper section's velocity just before the collision. You aren't likely to see that with the naked eye.

Gravity continues to accelerate the upper section through the collision, so poor video analysis doesn't always show it either. Competent video analysis shows diminutions of velocity considerably in excess of what is predicted by conservation of momentum. In other words, the effect predicted by conservation of momentum was small relative to the reduction in velocity caused by the supporting strength that remained within the compromised structure below.

As the collapse progresses, the falling mass grows larger. That means the diminution of velocity attributable to conservation of momentum, which was already less than 10% for the first collision, becomes even less noticeable in subsequent collisions.

The towers did not come down quite at free-fall speed, but it was not far off it.
The average downward acceleration was about two-thirds the acceleration of gravity.

But back to conservation of momentum. Inertia dictates that a mass will not suddenly assume the velocity of the moving object falling onto it, even if it is so tenuously structured that a feather falling onto it would initiate its collapse. In this case, we are talking about an increasing substantial structure the further down the building we go. Yet it offered little more resistance than fresh air on the day of 9/11.
Fresh air does not reduce the acceleration of gravity by one-third.
 
Someone on another forum is very pleased with themselves at having come up with a fool-proof demolition of the "official story" and believe that it is refuted by applying the conservation of momentum. They also link to some execrable page from the execrable "What Really Happened" website. But does anyone feel like giving a concise reason for why the conservation of momentum argument is wrong or misapplied here? (I'm not an engineer!)

'' How did the really heavy mid to lower sections suddenly start moving at the same pace as the falling upper sections, unless they were offering _virtually no resistance at all....''

Well put. I hope Heiwa reads it. It would play well for him..
 
lol he promotes the thermal lance cut column picture as evidence of thermite lol.
 
...We are expected to believe that as it suddenly (with a flash) lost all its structure and fell onto the floor below, ...

It doesn't matter at all if the top section above the burning floors lost all their support in a flash or somewhat gradually. All that matters is that a cross-section of the tower crashed (columns/joints buckling and breaking) and the top section picking up some speed as it is accelerated by gravity.


...how does each new floor suddenly assume the accumulated velocity of the falling floors above?

Strawman. It doesn not assume the speed, it assumes the momentum, thereby losing some speed (as some of the mass starts out at rest)


We're talking about a progressively heavy core structure (it having been built to bear the weight of the entire structure above, at each stage). So why did it not _substantially_ arrest the downward motion?

As lower stories became progressively heavy (and strong), so did the weight and the speed of the already falling top part accumulate. So while the static strength of the lower stories increased basically in a linear function, the momentum of the fall increased basically with a function that contains a power of 2 - momentum increased faster than resisting static force.


As Frank Verismo points out, a great deal of the mass was pulverised in any case, so the full weight of the above sections were dispersed each time a new floor was reached by the downward progression.

When we are looking at conservation of momentum, it doesn't matter if the mass you want to arrest is already pulverized or still structurally intact. If you want to arrest the collapse, you need to arrest the downward momentum of all the masses involved, as it wouldn't do much good to stop the intact parts and let the pulverized parts keep falling (all the way).


How did the really heavy mid to lower sections suddenly start moving at the same pace as the falling upper sections, unless they were offering _virtually no resistance at all_ - unless they were already falling themselves immediately before the progression hit them.

Because the dynamic load of n upper stories at velovity v with mass m is magnitudes greater than the static load these mid to lower sections were designed to carry. They were designed to excert the upward force of several (3-5?) times the weight of all the floors above, but to arrest these floors within the short distance that the columns still remain elastic would require a force much more than 10 times the weight.


The towers did not come down quite at free-fall speed, but it was not far off it. It was way too close to free-fall acceleration to believe even for a moment than a substantial structure of increasing strength was being crushed by the powdered remains of the floors above.

Towers came down around 2/3rds of free fall speed which actually is a considerable distance off.
Plus Argument from incredulity.


If the motion was entirely downwards, with no other force than downward gravity operating after collapse was initiated, why do we see massive steel girders ejected out laterally for hundreds of feet? Why did tiny body parts (sections of finger, etc.) appear on rooftops hundreds of yards away?

Drop a paper bag full with assorted things (screws, tomatoes, marbles, toys) from your upper floor down onto your terrace. Watch what happens. See how some of the things are flung sideways?


In standard building collapses, one would find at least a few things intact. A chair, a monitor, something. How come the biggest items found were fragments of telephone keypads?

Twin Towers were non-standard building collapses. They were just so very much bigger than anything we've seen so far. Potential energy of one tower, just standing erect, equals that of a formidable nuke. That is as much "standard building collapse" as Hiroshima was "standard bombing".


Look at the column on the last picture on this page: How did it acquire that precise cut, consistent with a controlled demolition?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/thermite.htm

As has been pointed out before: Welcome to the dark ages of trutherism.


But back to conservation of momentum. Inertia dictates that a mass will not suddenly assume the velocity of the moving object falling onto it, even if it is so tenuously structured that a feather falling onto it would initiate its collapse. In this case, we are talking about an increasing substantial structure the further down the building we go. Yet it offered little more resistance than fresh air on the day of 9/11.

Increasing substantial structure met even faster increasing momentum the further down the building we go.
 
'' How did the really heavy mid to lower sections suddenly start moving at the same pace as the falling upper sections, unless they were offering _virtually no resistance at all....''

Well put. I hope Heiwa reads it. It would play well for him..

Just to make sure we are on the same pace here.
The WTC towers were constructed with these flimsy floors:

thum_11696474df7b2e709f.jpg


I have no idea how those flimsy floors could stop a falling block like this:

thum_11696474df7bfd686f.jpg


Do you have any idea? Maybe Heiwa knows?
After all he is a naval architect and marine engineer.
 
Just to make sure we are on the same pace here.
The WTC towers were constructed with these flimsy floors:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_11696474df7b2e709f.jpg[/qimg]

I have no idea how those flimsy floors could stop a falling block like this:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_11696474df7bfd686f.jpg[/qimg]

Do you have any idea? Maybe Heiwa knows?
After all he is a naval architect and marine engineer.

...and don't forget that he is a formidable structural damage analyst..
 
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The autosensor puts in more * then are needed. The curse word I used above, and in the original post, was only 7 letters long.

TAM:)
 

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